Fredrik_SWE said:
Removing some of Finland would be good... for a start. I still think Denmark could use a couple of early leaders too.
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Removing some of Finland would be good... for a start. I still think Denmark could use a couple of early leaders too.
ryoken69 said:
Aye. How often do you see a player Sweden not taking Norway within 50-100 years from the start?
Well, the playerstile in EU2 isn't historical. It's the same that Austria go for annexing the HRE from start. You can't really play EU2 on the basis of historical terms, i play in MP games were Denmark owns parts of Finland.Hive said:
Still, Denmark is underpowered witch means that Sweden have a more easier time to take Norway. And the the most times i've seen Denmark in a MP game they go Naval, and Sweden full land. Witch means that Sweden get a upperhand in land morale. With this, Denmark will have a hard time to fight Sweden in Norway!
In my opinion Sweden is overpwered compared to both history and in its neighbours for gamebalance issues.
Besides, while Norway-Denmark can be explained in an infrastructural way (ie. it is possible to send people & trade between the countries) such an explanation between Norway-Sweden is rather far-fetched.
Why I put forth such a claim?
Well, during the wars between Norway-Denmark & Sweden, how often was Norway invaded by Sweden (or vica-versa) and at what cost?
*** Remember, they would have to cross some serious mountains/woodlands -> no/very little supplies can be brought ***
And transporting supplies/troops by sea was neigh to impossible as long as Denmark have controll of the Sund & Skagerak.
Sweden on the other hand needs to break thru the Sound/Skagerak to be able to mess with the infrastructure between Norway-Denmark or any other country bordering on the Atlantic for that matter.... Probably why she looked east in the first place....
Why I put forth such a claim?
Well, during the wars between Norway-Denmark & Sweden, how often was Norway invaded by Sweden (or vica-versa) and at what cost?
*** Remember, they would have to cross some serious mountains/woodlands -> no/very little supplies can be brought ***
And transporting supplies/troops by sea was neigh to impossible as long as Denmark have controll of the Sund & Skagerak.
Sweden on the other hand needs to break thru the Sound/Skagerak to be able to mess with the infrastructure between Norway-Denmark or any other country bordering on the Atlantic for that matter.... Probably why she looked east in the first place....
Galleblære said:Well, at least you are frank about it.
I remember reading an early AAR by Mr.T before gettin EUII. For some reason, Spain never formed (so no colonisation) and, *drumroll* Sweden was the biggest coloniser in the world. No, Mr.T was playing the Timurids, and had not affected the region at all.
Well, that could've happened, you know. That's what EU2 is all about, really: Alternate history (with a tad of reality in it)
Denmark annexing both Pomerania, Mecklenburg and Teutonic Order as early as 1439 is "unrealistic" too. And this is one of the things that happens in some 90% of my games.
I think that the main problem in Scandinavia in the early GC is that Novgorod is too weak. If they were stronger, Sweden wouldn't be able to expand into Russia directly from start as they can (and often does, although not in my games
) now. Give Novgorod Savolaks at the beginning, and another bunch of infantry - and they wouldn't be squashed like the bug they were 
The problem with Novgorod is that it get dowed almost immidiantly by the surroundering russian states and ALWAYS get beaten up(I dont think I ever have won a single battle with Novgorod).
hansmaa said:
You have got a point there. It is best compared to the russian winther. It is not the ideal place for agression. During the wars with Sweden it where often just a matter of pilaging on that front.
Why do people insist that Denmark is underpowered in 1419. If anything it is slightly owerpowered, the plague had eliminated about 1/2-1/3 of the population just 70 years earlyier. Jutland was only scarcly populated (and mostly on the east coast), and the constant strain of keeping the union together used much of its resources. Denmark where unable to reclaim the old danish province of shlesvig from Holstein, which it had lost in 1340. Its position in Scandinavia was based upon the brilliant monarchs of the late 14'th century (Valdemar atterdag -"yet a day" and Margrete I), combined with the situation in Norway and Sweden at the time. If you where to take a stroll through Denmark (especially Jutland) you would constantly run into destolate farms - which where the main reason why "vornedskab" was introduced. Denmark should look strong on the map, but infact it should be anything from rich. Actually the church aught to earn as much or more on the danish provinces than Denmark untill the reformation, since it owned as much as ½ the estates in Denmark. It is the reformation that became the turning point - and I do believe (I am not certain) the same thing goes for Sweden.
It might however not work gamewise if both nations are weakend considerably untill the reformation!
Btw: I tried running a few handsoff games for 100-150 years, after having removed ugric as country culture from Sweden: It just posed the oposite problem:
First game: Sweden was bitchslapped by Denmark
Second game: Sweden was bitchslapped by Novgorod (never saw that before)
Third game: Sweden took ingermanland, otherwise nothing happend
It is hardly enough statistics to base anything on, but it seems to me that it is not the way to go.
*Stunned* Is that the first Danish that have said Denmark is overpowered, even if a little? Hell, that might even be the first one EVER to say that Denmark is a little overpowered, *applause*
Some good comment here. While some of you definitely have a finger on the pulse of the problem, none of you have identified the real reason.
Is Sweden money-wise (and all that goes with that) better then Denmark? –Yes it is. Is that the reason Sweden overpower Denmark (and everybody else around him) in most games? –No
In MP games this is probably the reason, but not in single player!
The trick to this is simply so easy that it hurts, it is btw the easiest fix, of all, in the greatest ai mod.
Sweden is a raging warmonger, with a staggering 60 in war setting, surpassed only by Spain, Russia, Turkey and France, having DAN, NOR, RUS, LAT and POM on the ‘job’ list.
He can’t fall on Denmark for about 100 years (normally); he can’t fall on Norway, cause Denmark keeps him in the alliance, only occasionally can he sneak in on him, when Norway dishonours, which he does often, as he is not a warmonger. But Denmark normally keeps him safe, by keeping him in the alliance. He does not have a border with neither RUS, LAT nor POM.
So what does a ranging warmonger do, with no option of attacking his job list ?? He falls on the 2nd best, which is ~ drum role ~ yes you guessed it NVG. The only nation Sweden can attack via land.
All the Russians states are warmongers too, 100% in fact, have all of each other on the job list (all using the Russian ai file) so a war will fall up there within 1 month of the start of the game, with a 100% involvement of NVG each and ever time.
You got the only target of SWE, currently in a war – of course SWE declares war on NVG. It happens again and again.
This led 99% Denmark into the same war too (Norway maybe 50%).
By the time someone has gotten the upper hand up there, its time for SWE to set it self free from Denmark, automatically leaving Denmark as supreme and only target available for SWE.
SWE has the money (province, tech, ducats, leaders), the will (warmonger), the opportunity (DAN provinces is available all around him) and the reason (job list).
Like Amen in the church. Denmark does not stand a chance.
It is not the money the leaders, the tech and provinces riches – that is only the things that makes him able to do it in the long run. Denmark ALWAYS loses exactly because of long wars.
It is the will and reason that do it. E.g warmonger and job list.
Set the Swedish war to 10 and remove all from the job list for 130-150 years – and you got a historical SWE playing right before your eyes
Up his war later, but you should not put DAN on the job list before 1600-1650.
With these simple changes you have corrected both DAN and SWE in one go to dang near historical play.
Is Sweden money-wise (and all that goes with that) better then Denmark? –Yes it is. Is that the reason Sweden overpower Denmark (and everybody else around him) in most games? –No
In MP games this is probably the reason, but not in single player!
The trick to this is simply so easy that it hurts, it is btw the easiest fix, of all, in the greatest ai mod.
Sweden is a raging warmonger, with a staggering 60 in war setting, surpassed only by Spain, Russia, Turkey and France, having DAN, NOR, RUS, LAT and POM on the ‘job’ list.
He can’t fall on Denmark for about 100 years (normally); he can’t fall on Norway, cause Denmark keeps him in the alliance, only occasionally can he sneak in on him, when Norway dishonours, which he does often, as he is not a warmonger. But Denmark normally keeps him safe, by keeping him in the alliance. He does not have a border with neither RUS, LAT nor POM.
So what does a ranging warmonger do, with no option of attacking his job list ?? He falls on the 2nd best, which is ~ drum role ~ yes you guessed it NVG. The only nation Sweden can attack via land.
All the Russians states are warmongers too, 100% in fact, have all of each other on the job list (all using the Russian ai file) so a war will fall up there within 1 month of the start of the game, with a 100% involvement of NVG each and ever time.
You got the only target of SWE, currently in a war – of course SWE declares war on NVG. It happens again and again.
This led 99% Denmark into the same war too (Norway maybe 50%).
By the time someone has gotten the upper hand up there, its time for SWE to set it self free from Denmark, automatically leaving Denmark as supreme and only target available for SWE.
SWE has the money (province, tech, ducats, leaders), the will (warmonger), the opportunity (DAN provinces is available all around him) and the reason (job list).
Like Amen in the church. Denmark does not stand a chance.
It is not the money the leaders, the tech and provinces riches – that is only the things that makes him able to do it in the long run. Denmark ALWAYS loses exactly because of long wars.
It is the will and reason that do it. E.g warmonger and job list.
Set the Swedish war to 10 and remove all from the job list for 130-150 years – and you got a historical SWE playing right before your eyes
Up his war later, but you should not put DAN on the job list before 1600-1650.
With these simple changes you have corrected both DAN and SWE in one go to dang near historical play.
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G-Klav said:Well, that could've happened, you know. That's what EU2 is all about, really: Alternate history (with a tad of reality in it)
Denmark annexing both Pomerania, Mecklenburg and Teutonic Order as early as 1439 is "unrealistic" too. And this is one of the things that happens in some 90% of my games.
No, that could NEVER have happened. Keep your absurd pipe-dreams to yourself, Swede!
Sweden the biggest coloniser in the world....bwahahahaha! :rofl:
Galleblære said:No, that could NEVER have happened. Keep your absurd pipe-dreams to yourself, Swede!
Sweden the biggest coloniser in the world....bwahahahaha! :rofl:
Yea and this was probably only a one timer, i've never seen it myself from any of my many games.
Daywalker said:Some good comment here. While some of you definitely have a finger on the pulse of the problem, none of you have identified the real reason.
Is Sweden money-wise (and all that goes with that) better then Denmark? –Yes it is. Is that the reason Sweden overpower Denmark (and everybody else around him) in most games? –No
In MP games this is probably the reason, but not in single player!
The trick to this is simply so easy that it hurts, it is btw the easiest fix, of all, in the greatest ai mod.
Sweden is a raging warmonger, with a staggering 60 in war setting, surpassed only by Spain, Russia, Turkey and France, having DAN, NOR, RUS, LAT and POM on the ‘job’ list.
He can’t fall on Denmark for about 100 years (normally); he can’t fall on Norway, cause Denmark keeps him in the alliance, only occasionally can he sneak in on him, when Norway dishonours, which he does often, as he is not a warmonger. But Denmark normally keeps him safe, by keeping him in the alliance. He does not have a border with neither RUS, LAT nor POM.
So what does a ranging warmonger do, with no option of attacking his job list ?? He falls on the 2nd best, which is ~ drum role ~ yes you guessed it NVG. The only nation Sweden can attack via land.
All the Russians states are warmongers too, 100% in fact, have all of each other on the job list (all using the Russian ai file) so a war will fall up there within 1 month of the start of the game, with a 100% involvement of NVG each and ever time.
You got the only target of SWE, currently in a war – of course SWE declares war on NVG. It happens again and again.
This led 99% Denmark into the same war too (Norway maybe 50%).
By the time someone has gotten the upper hand up there, its time for SWE to set it self free from Denmark, automatically leaving Denmark as supreme and only target available for SWE.
SWE has the money (province, tech, ducats, leaders), the will (warmonger), the opportunity (DAN provinces is available all around him) and the reason (job list).
Like Amen in the church. Denmark does not stand a chance.
It is not the money the leaders, the tech and provinces riches – that is only the things that makes him able to do it in the long run. Denmark ALWAYS loses exactly because of long wars.
It is the will and reason that do it. E.g warmonger and job list.
Set the Swedish war to 10 and remove all from the job list for 130-150 years – and you got a historical SWE playing right before your eyes
Up his war later, but you should not put DAN on the job list before 1600-1650.
With these simple changes you have corrected both DAN and SWE in one go to dang near historical play.
Sounds reasonable
I think IMO that you've found the true problem, and offered a nice answer. All your reasoning seems logical and fact-founded, and your solution is quite simple.Daywalker said:Some good comment here. While some of you definitely have a finger on the pulse of the problem, none of you have identified the real reason.
[Deleted text]
Set the Swedish war to 10 and remove all from the job list for 130-150 years – and you got a historical SWE playing right before your eyes
Up his war later, but you should not put DAN on the job list before 1600-1650.
With these simple changes you have corrected both DAN and SWE in one go to dang near historical play.
Besides, on the long run, a more adequate answer would be to write events to modify the AI-file Sweden uses, and having AI-files adequate for each period (like it's already implemented in the AGCEEP for some countries). Expanding it to all the countries that behaved differently in the time-period of EU would be the next step.
Downloaded, next game will be with it.Daywalker said:
[look closer, its only a click away]
Thank you for your job.
Although expanding the AI files is a must, IMO, it still doesnt solve the unbalanced MP issue. Reduce initial starting values could be a simple solution without tinkering too much with the events.
I think the main issue here is tax value. Denmark was far wealthier than Sweden throughout most of the Eu2 time period, which isn't simulated. If you cut down the tax values in Finland, it would not only solve this problem but give Russia a harder time with attrition if they ever decided to try a Finnish campaign, not to mention decrease the incentive for one in the first place, thus leaving Sweden poorer and less of a target. And if Sweden ever wants to get any serious money, it can try to get other countries to pay either through diplomacy or force, just like IRL.
I agree with John. A tax value 0 province with a minimal fort makes a siege army take attrition in normal weather. A tax value 1 province with a small fort does the same thing. Add snow.........
ryoken69 said:
Totally off-topic, but that reminds me of Polish Memel in one game with tax value 0 and medium fort... The reason why Poland lived so long in that game (I was Russia).
EDIT: Was in 1.07, not betas.