Sweden too overpowered in EU2??

[Wetboy]

Reading the swedish leader-file can indeed be a bit daunting. But remember that during the seventeenth century Sweden was probably the most militarized country in the world. Being constantly in war from 1560 onwards can do that. Being a poor and sparsly populated country made Sweden rely on conscripts led by domestic talent. The only real way for an industrious individual to make a career was to enroll in state service. Being a land-owner brought wealth only to a very few families belonging to the high nobility. That brought forth the creation of an officer-class that didn´t necessarely have to be noble-born.

The combination of a militarized society, few other career-paths and the social prestige that could be attained made for an excellent recruiting-ground for officers at all levels.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

I think part of the problem is Finland. In the beginning of even the 1419 scenario, it's fully integrated into Sweden and the only distinguishing characteristic is that 4/5 of its provinces do not have scandinavian culture (but then maybe Sweden gets ugric too? I haven't checked, but that would just make it worse).

This allows Sweden a strong base from which to launch attacks *out* of Scandinavia, which in turn causes Novgorod to ahistorically lose parts of northwest Russia to it.

I'm not sure if it's historical or not, but perhaps a way to weaken Sweden would be to reduce some or all of the 5 Finland provinces to low-level unfortified colonies (as Narvik and Finnmark in Norway, Lappland in Sweden, and Kola, Karelia, and Arkhangelsk in Russia already are). Not only would this economically weaken Sweden at game-start, but it would require a significant investment of time and resources to bring the provinces up to what they currently are in 1419.

Note: I'm looking at this mainly from the perspective of playing the Russian states (either Novgorod or Muscovy), where Sweden ranks among the top 4 threats from day one.... and *already holds* territory all the way up to the historical Russian border. I'm not all that familiar with Scandinavian history, so perhaps this would all be out of line. But I'm *not* looking at it compared to Denmark, but rather compared to the Russian-Finnish front.

 

[Hive]

80% of the time I see the big blue blob grow bigger and bigger, absorbing most of Norway, Denmark and parts of Russia. The problem could have been adressed in the beta-stage, by giving Demark more provinces, but I guess it's too late for that!

It's just too easy to cover Denmark's two main provinces, and then they are finished.

Good point. A few more provinces, and the problem would perhaps vanish.

 

[Trinitrotoluen]

I think part of the problem is Finland. In the beginning of even the 1419 scenario, it's fully integrated into Sweden and the only distinguishing characteristic is that 4/5 of its provinces do not have scandinavian culture (but then maybe Sweden gets ugric too? I haven't checked, but that would just make it worse).

Yes, Sweden has ugric as state culture from day 1.

 

[saskganesh]

Good point. A few more provinces, and the problem would perhaps vanish.

edit the Jutland into a few more pieces? LIke Korea in EU II ASIA?

AI Sweden will roll over Norway, yea, and go after Novogorod. Typical.

I don't think I've ever seen them make a move into Germany in the 30 year war period.

 

[Johan]

Peter Ebbesen explains it perfectly well there.. Its pretty obvious that Sweden is underpowered when you read that abysmal report.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I agree with Kong Skjold that both might be a bit strong from the beginning, Sweden even more so. Adjusting some of the events for Sweden ought to help as well, as clearly shown by PE:s post.
However, Prince Eugene are not right in that Denmark ought to be able to annihilite Sweden from start, at leats it doesn't make sense historically. They should both be a tad to poor to wage that kind of war against the other. Some of the Swedish leaders are overpowered, my main favourites right now are J. de la Gardie and A. Ehrensvärd. The were mediocre as military leaders. If someone feels like putting together some biographic facts and present them to AndrewT he will change their stats I'm sure. There have been some changes in SWE and DAN leader files lately.

 

[Hive]

edit the Jutland into a few more pieces? LIke Korea in EU II ASIA?

Jutland in 2, Fyn (the island between Jylland and Sjælland) as a seperate province.

 

[Hive]

Peter Ebbesen explains it perfectly well there.. Its pretty obvious that Sweden is underpowered when you read that abysmal report.

Right... I still remember the thread PE talked about in which you brought up the "Atlantica"...

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I think that Savolaks and Österbotten should go to Novgorod, because the border between Sweden and Novgorod defined in the peace of Nöteburg (Pähkinäsaari) in 1323 did include only small part of those provinces. They were added to Sweden in the peace of Täyssinä (Teusina) in 1595.

It would weaken Sweden at start a little bit and also would give Sweden some other goals in it's war against Novgorod (which it almost always starts in jan 2 1419 in GCs).

 

[Hive]

I think that Savolaks and Österbotten should go to Novgorod, because the border between Sweden and Novgorod defined in the peace of Nöteburg (Pähkinäsaari) in 1323 did include only small part of those provinces. They were added to Sweden in the peace of Täyssinä (Teusina) in 1595.

It would weaken Sweden at start a little bit and also would give Sweden some other goals in it's war against Novgorod (which it almost always starts in jan 2 1419 in GCs).

Interesting idea... do you have some maps to back this up?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

This site for example, click on those 1323 and 1595 frontiers.

http://www.yle.fi/eurooppalaisialapsia/english/aboutfinland/suomi_raja.html#

Only in finnish, but numbers and pictures are universal language:

http://www.koulukanava.fi/historia/rajat/index.htm

Again in finnish, but with maps:

http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/suomenhistoria/historia/rajat.htm

 

[Norrefeldt]

I think that Savolaks and Österbotten should go to Novgorod, because the border between Sweden and Novgorod defined in the peace of Nöteburg (Pähkinäsaari) in 1323 did include only small part of those provinces. They were added to Sweden in the peace of Täyssinä (Teusina) in 1595.

That's one way of viewing it. I don't really agree. One book on the subject (Gallén, Jarl; Lind, John: Nöteborgsfreden och Finlands medeltida östgräns, vol. 2-3, Helsingfors 1991.) discuss it and it seems the border was pretty clearly set in the south but that there are two different ways of understanding the treaty. It was written either without knowledge of the area and/or ambigous on purpose. Both explanations are likely. See this map:

The peace wasn't adhered to anyway, shown by the numerous wars that came later. It was an important peace nevertheless, but Österbotten had much closer links to Sweden and the rest of Finland, of course since the routes to Novgorod were almost impassable. The authors of the book above concludes that the area in the north was scaresely populated and there wasn't much central authority of any kind there.
In the game, I wouldn't suggest giving Novorod a port, or even coast line, in the Baltic.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Novgorod has Ingermanland at the start, remember, so Österbotten wouldn't be so bad that way. And as it was ambigous historically, then it could go both ways and it would balance at least 1419 to let Novgorod have it. The Novgorodians get raped almost always anyway and too often Karelia and / or Kola go to Sweden to be scandinavized, which gives Sweden additional bonus...

 

[Norrefeldt]

Oh, I forgot about Ingermanland. o When concidering the communications I doubt it could have gone both ways. There are much better ways to balance the setup then messing with the map. Cannot recall what size Karelia have at start but it wouldn't be streching it far to have it as a city to prevent culture change. The problem with Kola is not it being Scandinavian or Ugric, rather the high tax value of 4!

 

[G-Klav]

Well, I've seen many threads like this before, and the problem is: firstly that Sweden is a bit overpowered at the beginning, but secondly (the most important), Denmark is way to underpowered. The two provinces they have should be four (Själland, Fyn, Jylland and Schlesvig). I think it was Hive who stated that before.
Interesting idea to give Novgorod Savolaks and Österbotten. I think that at least Savolaks should be given to them.
But in 99% of my SP games, Sweden never goes into Russia, not even when Muscowy takes parts of Finland from them. They go for Norway instead (and sometimes annexes Denmark). But Northern Germany they always go for, taking Vorpommern, Hinterpommern, Mecklenburg, Holstein and Bremen.
Maybe Denmark colud be given a COT sometime in the late 1400's too? Maybe as an option in the sound due event?

 

[Hive]

Oh, I forgot about Ingermanland. o When concidering the communications I doubt it could have gone both ways. There are much better ways to balance the setup then messing with the map. Cannot recall what size Karelia have at start but it wouldn't be streching it far to have it as a city to prevent culture change. The problem with Kola is not it being Scandinavian or Ugric, rather the high tax value of 4!

Whether it's Scandinavian or Ugric is irrelevant under all circumstances, as Sweden have both. I, for one, like Byak's suggestion. And I think the maps seem to give justification for such a change.

 

[Geroshabu]

In my oppinion, the problem isn't high tax values. Swedish kings were known for being able to drain every penny they could get from a region.
Manpower on the other hand is both ahistorcial and overpowered. Sweden could never get enough troops from it's own population (population growth sometimes completely stopped or went backwards because of conscription) and always relied on mercenaries in the end.

 

[Mitte]

I think that giving Sweden Ugric culture (historically inaccurate?) and the fact that Denmark has too few core provinces are the two main problems.

 

[Mitte]

I think that giving Sweden Ugric culture (historically inaccurate?) and the fact that Denmark has too few core provinces are the two main problems.