Sweden, Norway or Denamrk to form Scandinavia?

[Beagá]

So which one is overall best? I suspect Sweden but as starting position Denamrk is quite easier.

Naturally it depends a bit on goals, but for simplicity sake, two situations: colonial or continental power.

 

[ciadude2]

Sweden becomes a powerhouse. Denmark is easy obviously if you keep Sweden and Norway happy til you integrate them.
As Sweden though you get some fantastic military based national ideas to help against your neighbors like Russia. Only downside is you have to spend the first few years preparing to take out Norway and Denmark. It's a simple enough thing to do though if you have patience.

 

[Thund91]

If you plan on going colonial, Denmark and Norway's NI's and starting capital trade node is superior. If you're going to focus on Europe, Sweden hands down.

I'd say Sweden is easier overall because Sweden is annoying to deal with earlier on as Denmark or Norway due to their quality boosts.

 

[OneEyedShark]

Denmark is best... just because.

 

[justin6477]

So which one is overall best? I suspect Sweden but as starting position Denamrk is quite easier.

Naturally it depends a bit on goals, but for simplicity sake, two situations: colonial or continental power.

I'd say Denmark is the better option in both cases. With Sweden, you have to break the PU and subjugate Norway and Denmark, that's going to take a while. With Denmark, you can jump right into expanding in the British Isles, Pommerania, or Livonia.

There's simply more time for growth, even if you will have to be smarter about it.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Denmark: you start with a PU with Norway and Sweden, just keep them happy, then integrate.
Of course beware the Swedes, for they are without honour.

 

[gaius valerius]

Sweden is glorious. The treacherous Danish yoke must be thrown of. As far as blunt power goes, Sweden hands down.

 

[Willem IV]

Gotland gives you the most prestige if you can pull it off.

 

[Rambo Panda]

I've never personally done it but I've read that if you form it as Sweden or Norway you lose your NIs. Be careful of that if those matter to you.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

I've never personally done it but I've read that if you form it as Sweden or Norway you lose your NIs. Be careful of that if those matter to you.

You don't lose national ideas, what you lose is the chance for tag-specific events to happen. For Norway that's not really a problem, but Sweden has some reforms that are really powerful. That's why people suggest not forming Scandinavia as Sweden (though after you got the military reforms event you can).

 

[MiniaAr]

I've never personally done it but I've read that if you form it as Sweden or Norway you lose your NIs. Be careful of that if those matter to you.

No you don't lose your NI actually. What you may lose is access to specific Dynamic Historical Events (DHE) which is
- a non-issue for Norway which has only a few so you should form Scandinavia as soon as you can.
- somewhat more impacting on Denmark (no Dacke Feud) but really tolerable so you should also form Scandinavia
- hurtful for Sweden as you will not get your specific events giving manpower/discipline/less infantry costs/moral. Those reform events appear after 1600. Thus don't form Scandinavia as Sweden (or only once you've gotten the events).

 

[cholliman]

If you are playing Sweden, it is best to stay as Sweden as there are some really good events specific to the tag that buff your military. You won't get them if you swap to Scandinavia. You could obviously live w/o them, but that makes me favor Denmark/Norway for forming Scandinavia. Denmark can be a pretty amazing naval power with its ideas, and Norway and extreme colonizer. Obviously Denmark is the significantly easier start out of the two, but it depends on what your overall aims are.

 

[Rain Envy]

If you are playing Sweden, it is best to stay as Sweden as there are some really good events specific to the tag that buff your military. You won't get them if you swap to Scandinavia. You could obviously live w/o them, but that makes me favor Denmark/Norway for forming Scandinavia. Denmark can be a pretty amazing naval power with its ideas, and Norway and extreme colonizer. Obviously Denmark is the significantly easier start out of the two, but it depends on what your overall aims are.

This guy. If you plan on forming Scandinavian don't play as Sweden.

 

[MiniaAr]

Regarding Norway as a coloniser, can you rely on your national ideas + Expansion and actually not pick Exploration to be a successful coloniser? Let's say set up Vinland and Nye Norge as colonial nations in America and get some good action in Asia?

 

[cholliman]

Regarding Norway as a coloniser, can you rely on your national ideas + Expansion and actually not pick Exploration to be a successful coloniser? Let's say set up Vinland and Nye Norge as colonial nations in America and get some good action in Asia?

That is interesting, but what makes this tricky is that you get your explorer from your norwegian ideas kind of late - I wish they switched the order you get these. Without the range buff from exploration, you'll also have to wait a bit also before you can get started, but there should still be plenty of open territory to grab. Plus since you are steering into the North Sea, you don't have to worry about the Carribean initially which is where Spain/Portugal seem to focus on initially.

When i did this, I took exploration and expansion to get a total of 4 colonists which was fun, but definitely less efficient as you are sort of wasting an idea as you are getting conquistadors/explorers twice. Then again, I do kind of now feel like giving this a shot - though I'm currently addicted to using the mod MEIOU&T, so I might have to try this in that setting!

 

[unmerged(804580)]

Regarding Norway as a coloniser, can you rely on your national ideas + Expansion and actually not pick Exploration to be a successful coloniser? Let's say set up Vinland and Nye Norge as colonial nations in America and get some good action in Asia?

Sure... but why not get two more from exploration if you're going to focus on colonizing?

I played Norway once in the release version and however much I colonized in the new world, I wasn't making much in terms of the force limits and had no way to deal with the Swedish menace. I ultimately decided to relocate after getting carpetsieged 5-6 times. Spamming colonies in North America and building up your colonial subjects there should give you some decent amount of force limit to work with. And the extra colonial range from the Exploration ideas is actually pretty nice. If you could butter up Morocco and get FBR from them, you can colonize Cape Verde before Portugal, and have a nice Brazilian or Carribean colony going on.

And you can invest everything in the colonies as Norway, play as it (if you have CoP), declare independence war, occupy a Norwegian mainland territory, and use it as a base for your "Sunset Invasion." As long as your colonies are any Scandinavian culture, you should be able to form Scandinavia from North America.

 

[MiniaAr]

That is interesting, but what makes this tricky is that you get your explorer from your norwegian ideas kind of late - I wish they switched the order you get these. Without the range buff from exploration, you'll also have to wait a bit also before you can get started, but there should still be plenty of open territory to grab. Plus since you are steering into the North Sea, you don't have to worry about the Carribean initially which is where Spain/Portugal seem to focus on initially.

When i did this, I took exploration and expansion to get a total of 4 colonists which was fun, but definitely less efficient as you are sort of wasting an idea as you are getting conquistadors/explorers twice. Then again, I do kind of now feel like giving this a shot - though I'm currently addicted to using the mod MEIOU&T, so I might have to try this in that setting!

Well the way I see it is that you'll start colonisation when getting your third idea group, and pick Expansion then. You need 12 ideas to unlock your explorating idea + range and you should have DIP tech 9 at this point also, giving you enough range. In the meantime, you could pick Naval as a first idea and fill it to the max, and a military group afterwards (Quality seems fine as a Naval/Land group). Then with your Naval superiority and hopefully a strong ally (France/Castille/Denmark), you can take on England and prevent them from taking the regions you want in America(Hudson Bay, St Lawrence, Cheasapeake).

Trying to get 12 ideas by your second group seems difficult, as you'll need to pick Expansion as your first or second group, and it won't be useful until you fill 5 ideas in there (except for the merchant) which will make your DIP tech lag behind and with only +33% range and DIP tech 7, you cannot reach Greenland (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Still, starting around 1518 (ADM 10) could be fun (on paper, I should test this) and the Reformation should have started by this point (and you should convert). This leaves you 70 years to break your Union, annex Scotland for total North Sea power, get Novgorod's provinces in the White Sea for a monopoly in the fur's trade, takeover Scandinavia and kill England before it becomes strong. Quite a program actually.

 

[Beagá]

I'd say Denmark is the better option in both cases. With Sweden, you have to break the PU and subjugate Norway and Denmark, that's going to take a while. With Denmark, you can jump right into expanding in the British Isles, Pommerania, or Livonia.

There's simply more time for growth, even if you will have to be smarter about it.

Is it Worth to go after the likes of Scotland or Ireland? Or even England?

In my Denmark game I got almost all of Teutonic knights (prussian is accepted) and annexed Holstein + another OPM, got Offensive as first NI (yes BLOOD for the BLOOD GOD! - actually wanted more Manpower without going for Quantity) but was considering Exploration next.

 

[cholliman]

Going after Scotland depends on your objectives and how much of a pain England/GB is giving you.

1. If you are looking to control the North Sea trade node, then yes. If you are colonizing, this could give you a way to ship your goods from North America to Lubeck (not sure though as I'm at work, does Hudson Bay -> North Sea still or to the damn Western European trade node?).

2. What can be fun is if England/GB reduces Scotland to one province who will accept becoming your vassal. From there you can then just go to war with England and return all of its cores. I kept vassal Scotland as a client kingdom and did not annex, but this is up to your playstyle.

3. For taking Ireland/England, it all depends on how much you like to blob. They are definitely valuable, but I personally am not a super-expander - I like to conquer a good sized region, but nothing that big.

 

[unmerged(92645)]

Denmark will get you started easier/possibly faster, either Norway or Sweden will take a bit more work to take over all the Scandinavian lands, and will be more vulnerable at the outset. Denmark is also probably a better option if you want a smooth colonizing/trade game because of the Lubeck node.

That said, Swedish NIs are probably better lategame for fighting in Europe, but you have to worry about more threats early on than Denmark does and you won't be as well positioned for trade/colonization until later.