Sweden: boxed in

[HydroAC]

I was inspired to play Sweden and it has been fun. It was something of a challenge escaping from a PU, dealing with a poor early economy, and some real threats (predatory Muscovy) when I was weak.

In 1523 I'm the #6 Power, have absorbed my neighbors along the Baltic, and have Novgorod and Norway as vassals.

The problem: no obvious expansion opportunities. I have identified a few options, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something:

• Claim France's throne: France has my dynasty (Lancaster) and a weak heir. They are currently my ally, but I could cancel my alliance and claim their throne before the heir comes of age (currently age 5). France has a bigger army (51 plus 33 from allies) and Elan!, so I don't think I can pull this off with my army of 46 and 12 from vassals. My ally Poland will not help due to debt, and Scotland will likely side with France with whom they are allied.

• Attack HRE: I could attack HRE lands via Danish land. In one war I could take the juicy trade centers such as Lubeck and Hamburg. The HRE Emperor Austria will call in Castile, Aragon and a host of others. I'd be outnumbered 2:1 so I do not think it would be worth it until I'm a lot stronger.

• Attack Muscovy: I have lots of claims from Novgorod. Muscovy is a military tech behind and is now in a war with low manpower and using mercs. Hungary and Circassia are Muscovy allies for a total force 74 vs 46 for me (I can't count on my 12 from my vassals). None of my allies will help: Poland - huge debt; Scotland and France - distant war and/or debt. I have a military advantage, but they have the numbers. Maybe I should take 4 loans to pay off Poland's debt of ~1000 ducats? If Pol/Lith join then I have a huge numerical advantage (107 vs 74). Or perhaps declare by myself and zero in and then separate peace Hungary, and then work on Muscovy? Hungary is a Rival, so humiliating him would be sweet.

Or I can just wait. My economy is doing great, with the highest trade income in Europe and 2nd highest total income after the Ottomans. I have been surprised at how robust the Baltic trade zone has been. I have all level 3 advisors and a great king (6-2-6, age 18).

Longer term goals:

• I'll claim England's throne, but I'll have to wait until they have no heir or a weak heir.
• Colonize the new world, once I get Exploration for Idea #4

Other details:

• My new leader died in 1452 (the perils of making your leader a general!), so I have a Lancaster on my throne
• Took a bite out of and then vassalized the last 5 Novgorod provinces. Muscovy got most of Novgorod, so I have lots low cost claims
• Annexed all of Denmark, the Lividian Order, and Riga and most of the Teutonic Order
• Married and allied France's 60 year old monarch, which spread Lancaster to France
• Ideas are Admin (done) and Defensive (4 of 7 done). Can't go wrong with Admin, and was on the fence for Defensive but wanted the 15% morale bump. At tech 10 I selected Influence.
• Went Protestant and am 85% converted. Have Protestant perks of +1 missionary, +5 morale army/navy, and +10% manpower.
• Allied to Scotland (great staging ground for an English PU), France, and Poland

 

[LetaBot]

You usually No-CB a country around Georgia and expand from there. Not sure if such a thing is still possible in 1523

 

[schondetta]

If your not conquering the world you should consider quality or offensive for your next ig. If your troops are better per pound than other nations than numbers stop becoming an issue. Sweden has some solid national ideas already and musocvy is unusually flimsy. Youll be surpriswd how easily you can defeat them in combat. I would go that way and cut to the Crimea to open up more avenues

 

[HydroAC]

I hadn't thought of a no-CB war - this why I posed the question to the Forum Brain Trust.

My options in the Black Sea are Circassia (allied to Muscovy) and QQ. QQ is an easy target, but it far from my base of operations - but would block the Ottomans and eventually get me closer to India. The terrain there is not very friendly

I could go after the Mamluks, which is a juicer prize - opening up Asia and also blocking the Ottomans. Unrest would be an issue, though, and I'd be very far away from my home turf. The Mamluks have an army as big as mine and one tech behind.

Or I could go for Jolaf in western Africa, setting me up with the start of a Trade Company and taking on the Portuguese who are well established in western Africa. I might be able to take Portugal and Castile/Aragon. An extra merchant would be very nice. This also fits with the possibility of taking Exploration for Idea #4 and further expansion around Africa and colonizing the Americas.

Hmmm....more options.

 

[Lord Zsinj]

What are your military ideas? Swedish NIs + Quality/Offensive/Defensive +15% morale eat Ivan for breakfast, lunch & dinner.

 

[Bouchart]

Do you plan on forcing the League War? Depending on how the Reformation spread you could make a play to force it to turn Protestant and become emperor.

Hungary is often at war with the Ottomans, so you might want to wait until then to attack Muscovy.

Can we see a map of your current situation?

 

[Vetgirig]

Britain is rightfully Viking soil. So conquer it.

 

[HydroAC]

Thanks for all the advice - much appreciated!

Unlocked military Swedish national ideas are: +20% infantry, +5% discipline
Defensive ideas unlocked: +15% morale
Protestant perk: +5% army morale
Army tradition: 86% (after my war with Muscovy)

I ended up attacking Muscovy, focusing on Hungary first. Their shattered armies cowered just behind the forts I was sieging on the Polish border. I then separate peaced them. My armies then smashed the Muscovites, likely a combination of tech advantage, morale, power projection, prestige, and army tradition.

I have to say the Nords are pretty tough.

So in 1527 I took 100% war score of stuff from Muscovy, much of which went to recovered cores for Novgorad.

My next war won't be so easy since Muscovy is now allied with Ottomans...booooo, hiss! I hope Muscovy allies a 3rd party so I don't have to attack both at once. If the Ottoman-Muscovy axis holds then I'll have to thy a CB attack on someone else, maybe in Africa

Here is the screenshot of the post-Muscovite war. I moved up to #3! Whoot!

Oh, and I definitely agree that the Nords should control England - our lands, after all.

 

[CharlieMRCR]

That moment when you enlighten someone to the unlimited possibilities of no-CB wars...

Spoiler

 

[Bouchart]

Another tip: You should be able to fabricate on East Frisia from where you are. It typically isn't HRE territory. If East Frisia is allied to someone in an important trade center like Lubeck, you could try declaring war on East Frisia and taking a trade center from one of its allies. Watch out for AE but taking one province in HRE territory isn't enough for a coalition against you.

Also you have several forts you could dismantle.

 

[HydroAC]

Do you plan on forcing the League War? Depending on how the Reformation spread you could make a play to force it to turn Protestant and become emperor.

All the Protestant Centers of Reformation are clustered near (former) Denmark. Looks like it won't spread all that much. Much of the blue you see in 1527 is me converting my lands.

 

[Brynjar]

Did Norway sell their isles to Scotland? If not, make them fabricate claims there and fight your way to London. As Sweden there is no reason to wait for rng to claim the English throne. Another alternative is East Frisia into Calais. As you already discovered, if you get boxed in, just smash the box.

 

[HydroAC]

Another tip: You should be able to fabricate on East Frisia from where you are. It typically isn't HRE territory. If East Frisia is allied to someone in an important trade center like Lubeck, you could try declaring war on East Frisia and taking a trade center from one of its allies. Watch out for AE but taking one province in HRE territory isn't enough for a coalition against you.

Unfortunately, East Frisia is part of the HRE. Such the pity. Maybe I could do a no-DB war on Genoa, putting me in the middle of the Mediterranean. Picking off a few outposts gives options. I wonder if I can core them? I'll have to check.

Also you have several forts you could dismantle.

You are right. I've been deleting some as I go, but there are quite a few that I clearly don't need.

 

[HydroAC]

Did Norway sell their isles to Scotland? If not, make them fabricate claims there and fight your way to London. As Sweden there is no reason to wait for rng to claim the English throne.

I can fabricate on Scotland now. I took part of Iceland so I can extent to the New World and the two Norwegian islands north of Scotland (I gave one back to the Norwegians so they wouldn't hate me).

 

[HydroAC]

As you already discovered, if you get boxed in, just smash the box.

Ha! I'll certainly remember that!

 

[Lord Zsinj]

Yeah, the jokes about Swedish Space Marines exist for a reason. You do hit a breakpoint that Ivan is no longer scary unless you fuck up.

 

[HydroAC]

Yeah, the jokes about Swedish Space Marines exist for a reason. You do hit a breakpoint that Ivan is no longer scary unless you fuck up.

Muscovy was very scary when my economy was terrible, my allies unreliable (England - too far away; Poland - sorry, we're busy doing...whatever), my neighbor to the south (Denmark) was bigger than me and hated me, and my army small. I never even considered dropping my army maintenance so I could keep my apparent strength up. I was pretty sure I would die a gravy-sucking pigs' death with no allies and being outnumbered 2:1 to a Muscovite vassal swarm.

With the exception of my war of liberation (helped by Scotland, Lithuania and a few others), many of my wars were solo. Allies were unreliable, or they bailed on me very quickly. My first solo war against the Livianian Order, Riga, and Teutonic order was a miserable experience, but I worked hard for it so it was rewarding.

The mistake I made in retrospect was taking Novgorod land such that I had a border with Muscovy. He immediately rivaled me, and I had 'his' land. **gulp!**

 

[Lord Zsinj]

Did you develop Dalaskogen early on?

 

[HydroAC]

Did you develop Dalaskogen early on?

No. The I saw that in a number of recommendations, but when I compared it to the steel-producing region Belgslagen there was not much difference except for the 5% bonus in Dalaskogen.

Looking again I see that the price of copper increased by 50% to 4.5 and the value in Dalaskogen increased accordingly. Adding diplo now makes a lot of sense.

Well, it is unfortunate that I wasn't tracking the price of copper better. I don't need the income now due to lots of trade and my diplo is going toward Influence Ideas, but back then it would be worth a lot to get noticeably improve my economy for a few ticks of diplo.

 

[Lord Zsinj]

Next time, remember, Dalaskogen IS your economy. Especially once you have workshop/weapon factory on it.

And FYI, unless it has been changed, I believe that bonus is actually +5 units produced. Effectively +25 development for production.