Swear fealty exploit

[liamgamer55]

So basically there's a pretty simple exploit. If you're a count that happens to fall victim to an invasion (e.g. the begging seljuk invasion) and you happen to be de jure part of a big bad empire, you can simply swear fealty to that empire (or kingdom) and then continue on happily after being part of that big empire while your peers are brutally converted and or destroyed/replaced. This simply does not make sense. Either this shouldn't be possible at all without being independent, or if you do do it then your former host kingdom should instantly attack your new host with the old host wanting to regain your land and the new host winning very little if they succeed at that war. I don't even think a "regain land" casus belli is enough. It should be a direct "Do you want war now yes/no". Also it shouldn't be possible at all above limited crown authority, or limited in a variety of other ways. This exploit basically means if an invasion took 8 provinces and all 8 of them were human players they could instantly swear fealty to their old liege with no penalties.

 

[Hastyr]

Dont you need to be at peace to swear fealty?

 

[yezhanquan]

So basically there's a pretty simple exploit. If you're a count that happens to fall victim to an invasion (e.g. the begging seljuk invasion) and you happen to be de jure part of a big bad empire, you can simply swear fealty to that empire (or kingdom) and then continue on happily after being part of that big empire while your peers are brutally converted and or destroyed/replaced. This simply does not make sense. Either this shouldn't be possible at all without being independent, or if you do do it then your former host kingdom should instantly attack your new host with the old host wanting to regain your land and the new host winning very little if they succeed at that war. I don't even think a "regain land" casus belli is enough. It should be a direct "Do you want war now yes/no". Also it shouldn't be possible at all above limited crown authority, or limited in a variety of other ways. This exploit basically means if an invasion took 8 provinces and all 8 of them were human players they could instantly swear fealty to their old liege with no penalties.

It makes perfect sense, actually. Small barons/counts have been switching who they call "my liege" to avoid trouble throughout the period.

 

[Dankysh]

So basically there's a pretty simple exploit. If you're a count that happens to fall victim to an invasion (e.g. the begging seljuk invasion) and you happen to be de jure part of a big bad empire, you can simply swear fealty to that empire (or kingdom) and then continue on happily after being part of that big empire while your peers are brutally converted and or destroyed/replaced. This simply does not make sense. Either this shouldn't be possible at all without being independent, or if you do do it then your former host kingdom should instantly attack your new host with the old host wanting to regain your land and the new host winning very little if they succeed at that war. I don't even think a "regain land" casus belli is enough. It should be a direct "Do you want war now yes/no". Also it shouldn't be possible at all above limited crown authority, or limited in a variety of other ways. This exploit basically means if an invasion took 8 provinces and all 8 of them were human players they could instantly swear fealty to their old liege with no penalties.

So let me get this right: You are a count in Kingdom 'x'. That Kingdom is attacked via an invasion by a empire 'y', for example Seljuk. Instead of getting converted/replaced by your new Emperor, you can swear fealty to an opposing empire 'z' if your county is in the de jure borders of z. That way you get to stay a count?

I don't see how this is an exploit. The new emperor y has CB on the empire you begged for protection to. (de jure kingdom CB). So if the emperor y takes this as a slight he can always attack empire z. But if he believes it's not worth a possible loss then he isn't forced into a war. A direct event asking war now yes/no is the same as a CB. The new emperor can easily just use the CB immediately (and would give rise to an actual exploit were empire y has it's armies raised while z doesn't).

You as a count has basically asked the emperor of z for protection from empire y, in return he gains your land into his empire and he becomes your liege. What's wrong with that?

 

[anonymouswolfm]

I don't even think a "regain land" casus belli is enough. It should be a direct "Do you want war now yes/no". Also it shouldn't be possible at all above limited crown authority, or limited in a variety of other ways. This exploit basically means if an invasion took 8 provinces and all 8 of them were human players they could instantly swear fealty to their old liege with no penalties.

A number of observations,

1) Isn't it the fact that the current strong claim given to the previous liege a CB that lasts for (at the very least) the life time of that liege (with possibility of it being inherited), but the direct "war now yes or no" is a one off option open to the previous liege which he may not want to exercise at that particular time?

2) How is the "exploit", in theory, different from the player declaring independence upon a foreign invasion, and swearing fealty to a foreign liege afterwards?

3) I don't really think it's a problem, in terms of historic plausibility, that a count seek foreign protection when his current liege is unable to guard itself from external military threats. The old liege would have legitimate cause to claim the territory back, which is reflected by the strong claim given to it in the game, and may exercise the option to re-claim when it sees fit.

4) The fact that this option can be abused, in the so-called "gamey" way esp in a MP game, does not mean that the option per se does not make sense. If you see it as a problem, why not agree with other players at the outset that you all would not resort to such a course of action?

 

[liamgamer55]

Well, at the very least I've never seen the AI do it ever. If it's historical and the AI isn't doing it then I suppose that's an issue.

Dont you need to be at peace to swear fealty?

Yes, I was/am in that circumstance.

It makes perfect sense, actually. Small barons/counts have been switching who they call "my liege" to avoid trouble throughout the period.

I could understand a count of lorraine changing from/to burgundian/french/english during the 100 years war voluntarily... but I still think it's a bit of an exploit when we're talking about changing between realms of different religions. Don't you think the local muslims might have left a few guards? If I'm sorrounded by muslims on all sides and including within my very own castle (and landlocked) and I swear fealty to the byzantine emperor without shedding any blood and without it costing me or the emperor anything at all that seems a bit implausible. De jure laws or not. Perhaps if swearing fealty means changing between a realm of one religion to another it should always mean shedding blood. At the very least how it should actually work is the byzantines should have to come in with troops to occupy my county (which is after all in the realm of Muslims currently) before I'm able to become part of their realm properly.

 

[Dankysh]

Well, at the very least I've never seen the AI do it ever. If it's historical and the AI isn't doing it then I suppose that's an issue.

Yes, I was/am in that circumstance.

I could understand a count of lorraine changing from/to burgundian/french/english during the 100 years war voluntarily... but I still think it's a bit of an exploit when we're talking about changing between realms of different religions. Don't you think the local muslims might have left a few guards? If I'm sorrounded by muslims on all sides and including within my very own castle (and landlocked) and I swear fealty to the byzantine emperor without shedding any blood and without it costing me or the emperor anything at all that seems a bit implausible. De jure laws or not. Perhaps if swearing fealty means changing between a realm of one religion to another it should always mean shedding blood. At the very least how it should actually work is the byzantines should have to come in with troops to occupy my county (which is after all in the realm of Muslims currently) before I'm able to become part of their realm properly.

Think of it in protection terms. Your liege is now the Byzantine emperor. If the Seljuk attacks your county they are now attacking the Byzantine empire. Any Muslims left living in the county (if there is any) may have a problem with it and rise up but that is handled by the rebel system.

The emperor is protecting you and your country. In return he gets some of your troops and some of your taxes (possibly).