Swabia (Current vs 1.30 vs ?)

[Pbhuh]

With 1.30 around the corner, this might be a waste of time. But I would still like to touch it, just as a documentation of some sorts or at least spur a discussion.

Swabia,

One of the typical areas of the HRE that was historically a patchwork of crazy small states and small imperial cities.

This is what we currently have:

In 1.30 the dev diaries showed us this improvement:

So let's get deep.

This is an improvement, but still far off from what it is historically and potentially any attempt at trying to improve it would be a waste of time for the sheer nature of what this area has to offer.

These are some maps: (Brace Yourselfs)

Obviously, there is no way to represent this ingame.

But maybe we could make some improvements.

First off, River Borders.

In the Proposed 1.30 change:
* Urach will be crossing the Danube River. This was not the case in history.
* Augsburg should go further north to the point where the Lech river joins the Danube. It should also not cross the Lech River into Bavaria.
* A part of Switzerland should extend past the Rhine river, around the town of Schaffhausen
* Ulm's territory was located more north of the Danube, not south. The Old version shows this better.
* An addition of the Iller river could be made, which joins the Danube in Ulm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iller
* The Memmingen province can than be confined by this river, forming the border between modern day Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg

Second, MORE PROVINCES???

Perhaps. I think there are still some great candidates in this area that could be included, here are some ideas:

* South of Württemberg: Hohenzollern - A province that is more memey than it was influential, but would be great fun for any brandenburg/prussia player. As they could take their ancentral homeland back.
* East of Breisgau, on the Danube: Fürstenberg - A somewhat bigger state in this area. It stuck around until 1806. It's around the town of Donauschingen.
* A northern Imperial City such as: Swabisch Häll, Heilbronn or Swabisch Gmünd, to represent any of these cities.
* The Abbey of Kempten south of Memmingen, a medium sized state
* Any representation of the sheer insanity that is around the area of the old Ravensburg province. This area is probably the craziest of them all, and i wouldn't mind seeing Ravensburg return or other Imperial Cities in this area, such as Biberach.

I do think the area still has potential for at least 1 more province, to potentially fix the borders of the other provinces and not go overboard with new additions.

Anyhow, here is an example of what insanity and minor provinces could be included:

I think any of these provinces could help with the accuracy in the region, but perhaps it would make the provinces too small. I will leave it up to the developers and the community to tell me what they think.

 

[Eruth]

With 1.30 around the corner, this might be a waste of time. But I would still like to touch it, just as a documentation of some sorts or at least spur a discussion.

Swabia,

One of the typical areas of the HRE that was historically a patchwork of crazy small states and small imperial cities.

This is what we currently have:

View attachment 575653

In 1.30 the dev diaries showed us this improvement:

View attachment 575654

So let's get deep.

This is an improvement, but still far off from what it is historically and potentially any attempt at trying to improve it would be a waste of time for the sheer nature of what this area has to offer.

These are some maps: (Brace Yourselfs)

Obviously, there is no way to represent this ingame.

But maybe we could make some improvements.

First off, River Borders.

In the Proposed 1.30 change:
* Urach will be crossing the Danube River. This was not the case in history.
* Augsburg should go further north to the point where the Lech river joins the Danube. It should also not cross the Lech River into Bavaria.
* A part of Switzerland should extend past the Rhine river, around the town of Schaffhausen
* Ulm's territory was located more north of the Danube, not south. The Old version shows this better.
* An addition of the Iller river could be made, which joins the Danube in Ulm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iller
* The Memmingen province can than be confined by this river, forming the border between modern day Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg

Second, MORE PROVINCES???

Perhaps. I think there are still some great candidates in this area that could be included, here are some ideas:

* South of Württemberg: Hohenzollern - A province that is more memey than it was influential, but would be great fun for any brandenburg/prussia player. As they could take their ancentral homeland back.
* East of Breisgau, on the Danube: Fürstenberg - A somewhat bigger state in this area. It stuck around until 1806. It's around the town of Donauschingen.
* A northern Imperial City such as: Swabisch Häll, Heilbronn or Swabisch Gmünd, to represent any of these cities.
* The Abbey of Kempten south of Memmingen, a medium sized state
* Any representation of the sheer insanity that is around the area of the old Ravensburg province. This area is probably the craziest of them all, and i wouldn't mind seeing Ravensburg return or other Imperial Cities in this area, such as Biberach.

I do think the area still has potential for at least 1 more province, to potentially fix the borders of the other provinces and not go overboard with new additions.

Anyhow, here is an example of what insanity and minor provinces could be included:
View attachment 575656

I think any of these provinces could help with the accuracy in the region, but perhaps it would make the provinces too small. I will leave it up to the developers and the community to tell me what they think.

I am against any more provinces in Europe, especially such tiny ones as this, until parts of the world like Madagascar and South East Asia are anywhere near the level that they should be.

 

[Pbhuh]

I am against any more provinces in Europe, especially such tiny ones as this, until parts of the world like Madagascar and South East Asia are anywhere near the level that they should be.

First off, I would like you to reread the entire thing.

Second off, Yes, other parts of the world need more depth as well. But we shouldn't start a battle between. MY area isn't done well so I refuse to improve another area thats not done well.

Thats not how you improve things.

 

[Eruth]

First off, I would like you to reread the entire thing.

Second off, Yes, other parts of the world need more depth as well. But we shouldn't start a battle between. MY area isn't done well so I refuse to improve another area thats not done well.

Thats not how you improve things.

The more detailed Europe is the less enjoyable the rest of the world is to play because it just highlights the disparities. Also, improvements cost dev-hours and pc performance, which I would prefer to be spent on places that still need it more.

 

[Pbhuh]

The more detailed Europe is the less enjoyable the rest of the world is to play because it just highlights the disparities. Also, improvements cost dev-hours and pc performance, which I would prefer to be spent on places that still need it more.

And what is your opinion on fixing the shapes of the provinces. You seem stuck on the whole: 1 more province HOW DARE HE SUGGEST THAT!
Instead of pointing to the whole discussion, which is primarily focussed on creating accurate borders as well.

 

[Robska]

I love it! The HRE deserves it. It is such a special region of the world. Every region has its thing but this region surely stands out in the sheer amount of "nations"

 

[nyetflix]

The more detailed Europe is the less enjoyable the rest of the world is to play because it just highlights the disparities. Also, improvements cost dev-hours and pc performance, which I would prefer to be spent on places that still need it more.

I sympathize as someone who really wants radical change to Africa, east + se Asia, among other places. It's sad that there is no point to playing as African or American states because of how insignificant they are treated. But, number one, the majority of players favor Europe. It's not simply a problem of "they only favor it because Europe is more well-done and developed", it's a problem of how little history we are taught from non-western societies so that people inherently prefer them. That's the reason we have this disparity in dev attention in the first place. Even if we get a giant update to Africa, you and I both know that there will be a small increase in people playing in the region. And I mean the game has always been focused around Europe. They purposely made it much richer and with much more advantages than the rest of the world (which is historically completely absurd) to make sure that things play out as they did in real life. Every mechanic, idea group, event in the game is designed from the point of view and relevancy to European nations first and foremost.

Number 2, they are in the middle of doing a huge update to continental Europe, larger and more detailed than usual updates, and that means that after the release, the devs are going to be able to ignore the region for some time. In fact, my guess is that they will focus on East and Southeast Asia after this release. For people really into it, Europe is still inaccurate in its own ways. As long as they are doing an update focused on one region, why should it not be as detailed as possible for the large population of people that are really into Europe? As much as I hate how the game treats African countries, I love a good European playthrough, rich with detail and fun content. That's the main reason why I like the game.

Basically, I love non-western history, but I love seeing the detail in European history too. It's fascinating in its own right and at the end of the day, it's what people are familiar with. We're never going to have a perfect game that represents all regions of the world well. It's better to have one region well designed than to have none.

 

[Eruth]

I sympathize as someone who really wants radical change to Africa, east + se Asia, among other places. It's sad that there is no point to playing as African or American states because of how insignificant they are treated. But, number one, the majority of players favor Europe. It's not simply a problem of "they only favor it because Europe is more well-done and developed", it's a problem of how little history we are taught from non-western societies so that people inherently prefer them. That's the reason we have this disparity in dev attention in the first place. Even if we get a giant update to Africa, you and I both know that there will be a small increase in people playing in the region. And I mean the game has always been focused around Europe. They purposely made it much richer and with much more advantages than the rest of the world (which is historically completely absurd) to make sure that things play out as they did in real life. Every mechanic, idea group, event in the game is designed from the point of view and relevancy to European nations first and foremost.

Number 2, they are in the middle of doing a huge update to continental Europe, larger and more detailed than usual updates, and that means that after the release, the devs are going to be able to ignore the region for some time. In fact, my guess is that they will focus on East and Southeast Asia after this release. For people really into it, Europe is still inaccurate in its own ways. As long as they are doing an update focused on one region, why should it not be as detailed as possible for the large population of people that are really into Europe? As much as I hate how the game treats African countries, I love a good European playthrough, rich with detail and fun content. That's the main reason why I like the game.

Basically, I love non-western history, but I love seeing the detail in European history too. It's fascinating in its own right and at the end of the day, it's what people are familiar with. We're never going to have a perfect game that represents all regions of the world well. It's better to have one region well designed than to have none.

Maybe we can start teaching people non-western history by updating EU4, eh?

 

[Eruth]

And what is your opinion on fixing the shapes of the provinces. You seem stuck on the whole: 1 more province HOW DARE HE SUGGEST THAT!
Instead of pointing to the whole discussion, which is primarily focussed on creating accurate borders as well.

I do think very poorly of the extra province, but you seem very stuck on the fact I disagree with that. I really have no opinion one way or the other one the rest of the post because I don't know the region and I don't really think those suggestions matter that much. I just don't care enough to comment on it.

 

[BalticM]

I like the old map here better as well.
The only good additions there are Urach as 2nd province for mighty Wurttemberg, and Konstanz replacing Ravensburg. Maybe also Bregenz.
While Durlach province should be merged with Baden. It was so tiny in the north and made up same province as Baden later anyways. Would be impossible to draw these provinces right if maps were at least a bit accurate.
Donauworth province as Bavarian possesion in Swabia make no sense. Better just delete and make comfortable borders for Ulm & Ingolstadt.
Rothenburg I would replace with Schwabisch Hall or Heilbronn as province is not correctly placed anyway (south of it is Wurttember??).

 

[nyetflix]

Maybe we can start teaching people non-western history by updating EU4, eh?

No lol. It should be in schools and media. This is just a game.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

No lol. It should be in schools and media. This is just a game.

A videogame is media, you know.

Also, speaking of tiny places, Monaco and San Marino could be added and Gibraltar could be an actual island.

But seriously, the game just needs a achievement "It's a me, San Marino!".

 

[Eruth]

No lol. It should be in schools and media. This is just a game.

Have you never researched any of the nations/events/history that you've played through? The games we play are just as much a part of the cultural miasma that shapes our worldview as any other form of media and should be held just as responsible for promoting a balanced view of history.

 

[Pbhuh]

This is not a discussion about the rest of the world, but about a small part of the world in Swabia and a discussion about what 1.30 offers vs what we have now vs what things could be improved.

Eruth, you went into this discussion without any real opinions but just to shit on the discussion to push your ideas of the rest of the world.

Do that somewhere else please.

BalticM furthers the discussion in a valuable manner by pointing out you can remove provinces to still represent something more accurate.

 

[nyetflix]

Have you never researched any of the nations/events/history that you've played through? The games we play are just as much a part of the cultural miasma that shapes our worldview as any other form of media and should be held just as responsible for promoting a balanced view of history.

Yes, I researched them more and realized that EU4's portrayal was very minimal and silly. My point is that ultimately the game's point is to provide a fun historically-based experience centered around Europe, not to portray history as accurate as possible or to educate people. Of course it should be better, but it's really not the end of the world to see other areas not accurate.

And I think we are really arguing over nothing here. Both of us want better representation for non-western history in the game and in general. The only difference is that you think it's not ok to be spending time on Europe.

 

[Eruth]

Yes, I researched them more and realized that EU4's portrayal was very minimal and silly. My point is that ultimately the game's point is to provide a fun historically-based experience centered around Europe, not to portray history as accurate as possible or to educate people. Of course it should be better, but it's really not the end of the world to see other areas not accurate.

And I think we are really arguing over nothing here. Both of us want better representation for non-western history in the game and in general. The only difference is that you think it's not ok to be spending time on Europe.

The more time spend on Europe the less on the rest of the world, and the more detailed Europe is the less I enjoy playing the rest of the world.