Sustainable OOB for Germany using TfH?

[Poopfaust]

A wonderful thing about HOI 4 is the GUI allowed you to predict what size army you could sustain including how much fuel and Manpower, etc., In all that I have read and observed the past two weeks with HOI 3, I do not have a clue how to predict what Germany (or any nation) can sustain. I am aware of the MP GUI which is somewhat helpful, but the Fuel and Resources.., I cannot tell.

I assume there is no mathematical way to do this, it is probably based on experience with HOI 3. But if there is a way to do this, any help would be greatly appreciated.

With that said, I pasted an excerpt from the infamous Mr. Bean which I believe was using FtM. Is the metric below accurate in HOI3 (especially for Barbarossa) in its present state using TfH?

from Mr. Bean –
our goals would be fairly historical:
at least 24 infantry (3inf/1art) in the west and
26 infantry in the east. minimum total: 50 infantry.
10 armor [4Larm (2Larm/1mot/1eng)] + 8Marm (2arm/1mot/8Spart)]
8-10 motorized infantry(2mot/2TD) .
30 interceptors, 12-16 tacs, 6 to 9 cas.

My usual aim, however, is not guided by the start of the war. I look at the main event: Barbarossa.
For this we will need:
about 125 infantry across all fronts,
about 20 arm,
15 to 20 mot,
48 int, 16 tac, 12 cas (the latter 2 preferably a lot more but we have to make choices here) and
about 50 militia (3mil/1AA) to defend all vulnerable ports.

Again, appreciate any help. Thanks.

 

[Alex Kernel]

A wonderful thing about HOI 4 is the GUI allowed you to predict what size army you could sustain including how much fuel and Manpower, etc., In all that I have read and observed the past two weeks with HOI 3, I do not have a clue how to predict what Germany (or any nation) can sustain. I am aware of the MP GUI which is somewhat helpful, but the Fuel and Resources.., I cannot tell.

I assume there is no mathematical way to do this, it is probably based on experience with HOI 3. But if there is a way to do this, any help would be greatly appreciated.

With that said, I pasted an excerpt from the infamous Mr. Bean which I believe was using FtM. Is the metric below accurate in HOI3 (especially for Barbarossa) in its present state using TfH?

Hey @Poopfaust,
nice to see you descending to HOI3. During peace you should hoard as many resources as you can, and during the war/expansion phase you will receive more resources and IC. As soon as your IC or oil consumption reaches the sustainability threshold you will notice your reserves decreasing, which is a clear sign you have to either stop production of oil consuming units and of new IC. In effect you do not need predictions, but only to keep a careful eye on the data.

How do you find HOI3 in comparison to HOI4? Did you start playing HOI3 seriously? Or are in the preparation phase?

 

[roverS3]

A historical OOB for Barbarossa is sustainable, but to prevent supply shortages at the front, infra improvements and convoys in the Baltic should be deployed. To eliminate them almost entirely, a healthy number of Tra wings will help yous solve punctual issues when they inevitably appear.

Now, how much you can sustain at a maximum is a complicated question. Of course you have a hard limit. You can see the supply and fuel consumption of each unit in the Division composition screen, and thus, if the total consumption of all of your units exceeds your industry's capacity to produces supplies you're going to have a hard time. That said, it seems unlikely for a major power to even be able to reach that point. Unless your industry collapses due to resource shortages and/or Strategic bombing. To avoid the former (as Germany), you need ample stockpiles of rare materials and some big juicy Metal import deals with Sweden. (once you take DK, the Metal gets delivered overland, so no convoy issues.) Of course, supply production should be increased over time with the appropriate tech. The supply throughput, and supply transportation techs are also essential for big, far away, campaigns. Each unit of IC needs 2 Energy, 1 Metal, and 1/2 rare materials, per day to operate, so make sure you can keep your industry running for the duration of the conflict by stockpiling &/or not going overboard with IC builds. (unless you're playing the USA, in which case you have near unlimited resources.)

Second is your fuel production. For Germany, that's a problem, but in HOI3 you can mitigate it significantly by stockpiling Crude Oil, improving the Refining technology, and possibly the Coal to Oil conversion technology. (though that might be a problem if you've grown your industry so much you can't spare the energy). The larger your available IC, the higher the rate of oil being refined into fuel (as long as you still have crude to refine). Even with those measures in place, I would not advocate for building significantly more Panzer units than historical as those will use up your fuel at a ridiculous rate, especially once they start getting close to Moscow, let alone Stalingrad. (transfer cost, see my response to your puppet question). I would say that your capacity to produce and/or buy Fuel in wartime is a good house rule to determine the amount fuel your military can durably consume. In the case of Germany, you'll probably still be running down your stockpiles though.

Manpower is another issue, and how much manpower you'll be losing can be hard to predict. That said Agriculture should always be up to date. Airpower is a crucial factor here, as keeping enemy bombers away from your troops, and bombing the enemy, will reduce casualties dramatically. All other factors that influence a battle's modifiers will have an effect on manpower losses. Combat medicine and First Aid will also help recuperate some of the manpower lost in combat and reduce manpower lost to attrition.

My Soviet 1942 OOB is as follows (just forces facing the Axis on the main front including reserves close-by, and Romania isn't in the Axis):
- 107 triangular Infantry Divisions. ( of which 3 Gds Divs)
- 22 binary units attached to HQ's (Infx2, AT)
- 15 Tank Divisions (10 Arm, Motx2, Eng, TD / 5 Armx2, Eng, SP Art)
- 10 Cavalry Divisions (L Arm, Mecx2, AC)
- 2 Guards HARM Divs.
- 18 triangular Motorised Rifle Divisions

Here is a helpful page in the Wiki which gives a decent OOB for Barbarossa that's just a tad on the fuel-thristy end of the scale, but manageable with appropriate precautions. It could serve as a guide:

Barbarossa OOB - Hearts of Iron 3 Wiki

hoi3.paradoxwikis.com

 

[Poopfaust]

Wow, love this board, thanks.

To respond - I have over 2000 hours on HOI 4. Man The Guns (Naval changes) burned me out horribly because the entire Naval aspect is just wonky and annoying, so I am limited to Russia, Italy, and Germany (I only play majors). I had played HOI 3 years ago before Youtube and I probably was unaware of the forum, so I played a couple hundred hours, but I never knew what I was doing. To respond to HOI 4 as compared to HOI 3, as you guessed, I am still prepping for HOI 3. I can tell you that if you have not been following HOI 4 since it was created, and watched all the Youtubes, and Wiki, and Forums.., you will have a hard time understanding the nuances of that. I do understand 95% of it, and it is a great game.., the Navy part is bad for me and the latest one with Resistance.., it adds some neat stuff some of which is annoying. To me, HOI 4 has jumped the shark. But again, it is great.

I have been psychotically researching HOI 3 for probably two weeks straight (the Manuals, Youtube, Wiki, and most of all, the Forums). Probably a hundred+ hours of research during this time. I have only played a couple months about a two dozen times as Germany, I keep re-doing stuff as I learn and understand.

I have waited till I had obtained all that I could until I asked questions. So the question phase is where I am at now.

That WIKI link (German OOB) was outstanding. I am unable to find that in the WIKI summary menus. GREAT!

With that out of the way, I realized that I was confused in that I was assuming (like HOI4) that Fuel was used when you start moving units. I just now realized (thanks to the responses above) that the Fuel is a constant drain, it is not variable. My god, does that change things in my mind!! I need to re-think this deeply for a few days. Thank you.

In the meantime, can I ask this (could be a really stupid question). Once I have a force that I believe is large enough (limited by Manpower), I guess having low resources would not be a disaster because that would just lower my ability to produce things.., which is not a bad thing. Hmmm, again, I need to think about this. WOW!!!


PS – Rover 53, you state “I would not advocate for building significantly more Panzer units than historical as those will use up your fuel at a ridiculous rate, especially once they start getting close to Moscow, let alone Stalingrad.” Maybe I am reading too much into this, but once I have my Panzer units built, why would I run out of Fuel as I approached Moscow/Stalingrad if the units use a Fixed Amount of Fuel that I already paid when I built them? Jeez, I have a headache right now.

 

[Alex Kernel]

So the question phase is where I am at now.

That WIKI link (German OOB) was outstanding. I am unable to find that in the WIKI summary menus. GREAT!

With that out of the way, I realized that I was confused in that I was assuming (like HOI4) that Fuel was used when you start moving units. I just now realized (thanks to the responses above) that the Fuel is a constant drain, it is not variable. My god, does that change things in my mind!! I need to re-think this deeply for a few days. Thank you.

In the meantime, can I ask this (could be a really stupid question). Once I have a force that I believe is large enough (limited by Manpower), I guess having low resources would not be a disaster because that would just lower my ability to produce things.., which is not a bad thing. Hmmm, again, I need to think about this. WOW!!!


PS – Rover 53, you state “I would not advocate for building significantly more Panzer units than historical as those will use up your fuel at a ridiculous rate, especially once they start getting close to Moscow, let alone Stalingrad.” Maybe I am reading too much into this, but once I have my Panzer units built, why would I run out of Fuel as I approached Moscow/Stalingrad if the units use a Fixed Amount of Fuel that I already paid when I built them? Jeez, I have a headache right now.

Well, this forum has a few very dedicated veterans like @roverS3, who deserve a big thank you.

To be honest I am playing mainly (to a limited extent tweaked for historical accuracy) minor powers, and never got a major beyond the the end of 1941 because I love micromanaging my armies, and it is impossible to do that with majors like Germany or the Soviet Union, unless one is a freak... With a minor power it becomes soon straightforward what you desperately need, therefore no great planning is needed.

What I do remember from playing once with Germany to see how the real toys look like is that letting the AI to manage much of the frontline is the wise thing to do. The AI is not terribly intelligent but most of the time has a competent hand, if you learn where to automate the decisions in the command structure and to which generals. My plan was to create an army with four to five smash divisions to break the enemy lines at rapid pace and to create major encirclements before the enemy AI gets what is happening and moves out the endangered troops. These troops made out of 5x L Arm and 4X M Arm with 1x ENG divisions followed by motorised divisions (4xMot and 1xEng) would step in right behind the advancing tanks until the slower infantry units move in. Even so, this seems to me an insane workload.

Should you follow this action plan, you will build on what you need basis instead of crunching numbers of unit types for a whole army.

As for what gives in first, MP or the resources, my experience is you will suffer a much sooner decline in key resources like Rare Materials and Fuel, than in Manpower. Manpower becomes a problem for Germany only in 1943, but you will have to win in the late Winter 1942/1943 at the latest. The Allies prove sometimes formidable enemies by 1943, but Japan occasionally hampers their ability to act in Europe if they don't win the sea battles in East Asia decisively. This is what I love about HOI3. It remains pretty unpredictable all the way. However AI Germany is set to lose almost all the time because of a combination of MP shortage, low supply transportation due to primitive infrastructure in the Soviet Union, and inability to mount a special operation to take Moscow when it gets near it in 1941/1942.

This level of micromanaging has probably turned off many strategy players from HOI3, but at the same time it provides a beautiful historical realism and complexity to the WWII that HOI4 with its oversimplified mechanics will never achieve.

(I know @roverS3 , you're impatiently waiting for the continuation of my Romanian AAR, and it will come! My work has slowed down dramatically my playing rate, but it didn't brought it to a halt. At this moment I am testing Romania as a Axis member against it's chances as a neutral Power, with the goal of regaining territorial integrity - Yes, the Soviets will give that Ultimatum in June 1940 forcing Romania to cede Basarabia, and Romania cannot stand alone for her historical province against the Soviets at that point.)

 

[Alex Kernel]

With that out of the way, I realized that I was confused in that I was assuming (like HOI4) that Fuel was used when you start moving units. I just now realized (thanks to the responses above) that the Fuel is a constant drain, it is not variable. My god, does that change things in my mind!! I need to re-think this deeply for a few days.

Actually, I think Fuel consumption is lower when a unit is staying and it increases to nominal value when that unit moves or fights.

 

[roverS3]

To respond - I have over 2000 hours on HOI 4. Man The Guns (Naval changes) burned me out horribly because the entire Naval aspect is just wonky and annoying, so I am limited to Russia, Italy, and Germany (I only play majors). I had played HOI 3 years ago before Youtube and I probably was unaware of the forum, so I played a couple hundred hours, but I never knew what I was doing. To respond to HOI 4 as compared to HOI 3, as you guessed, I am still prepping for HOI 3. I can tell you that if you have not been following HOI 4 since it was created, and watched all the Youtubes, and Wiki, and Forums.., you will have a hard time understanding the nuances of that. I do understand 95% of it, and it is a great game.., the Navy part is bad for me and the latest one with Resistance.., it adds some neat stuff some of which is annoying. To me, HOI 4 has jumped the shark. But again, it is great.

I've been playing HOI3 for 8 years now (no idea how many hours, but likely 5 figures), and I still discover new nuances or bugs in the game from time to time. I have been looking at HOI4 from afar, but as is the way with paradox games, it's far from finished. I have thus decided to wait until they announce HOI5, to purchase the complete edition with all the dlc's and sink my teeth into the completed product. TFH is so much better than vanilla HOI3, I'm sure HOI4 will become quite brilliant indeed.

That WIKI link (German OOB) was outstanding. I am unable to find that in the WIKI summary menus. GREAT!

I randomly stumbled upon it in the forum a few years ago. It doesn't seem to be linked with the rest of the wiki in any way, but I liked

With that out of the way, I realized that I was confused in that I was assuming (like HOI4) that Fuel was used when you start moving units. I just now realized (thanks to the responses above) that the Fuel is a constant drain, it is not variable. My god, does that change things in my mind!! I need to re-think this deeply for a few days. Thank you.

Actually, I think Fuel consumption is lower when a unit is staying and it increases to nominal value when that unit moves or fights.

Indeed, I'm not sure about the exact figures, but a stationary unit will use less fuel than a moving unit. The same thing is true, to a larger extent, with planes and ships. If you let them sit in port, they will use some fuel, but if you send them on missions, they will use significantly more of it. It's both really. There's a constant drain, and then there's the spikes for movement & combat.

In the meantime, can I ask this (could be a really stupid question). Once I have a force that I believe is large enough (limited by Manpower), I guess having low resources would not be a disaster because that would just lower my ability to produce things.., which is not a bad thing. Hmmm, again, I need to think about this. WOW!!!

You still need to produce supplies, and as your available IC drops due to lack of resources, so does the rate at which you refine crude into fuel. You also need to 'reinforce', this encompasses repairs to damaged infrastructure, and recovery/repair of damaged units. And then you need to 'upgrade' your units with new weapons to stay competitive with your enemies. Both supply usage and reinforcement increase in wartime, the latter dramatically so.

PS – Rover 53, you state “I would not advocate for building significantly more Panzer units than historical as those will use up your fuel at a ridiculous rate, especially once they start getting close to Moscow, let alone Stalingrad.” Maybe I am reading too much into this, but once I have my Panzer units built, why would I run out of Fuel as I approached Moscow/Stalingrad if the units use a Fixed Amount of Fuel that I already paid when I built them? Jeez, I have a headache right now.

Supplies & fuel don't work like they do in HOI4. In HOI3, your fuel and supplies need to get to the front. That means that the infrastructure between your capital (or a port you're shipping supplies into) needs to have sufficient throughput. The Logistics AI will always send out the max amount of supplies/fuel the units in each occupied province would need if in combat. (unless there isn't enough throughput available). Supplies (& fuel) move slowly, 1 province/day, and once sent out, a packet of supplies destined for a particular province will go all the way there, even if the province has already been vacated. Every movement of supplies & fuel on the map has a cost. A base 'supply tax' of 0.1/province is levied. This can be reduced with the 'Supply transportation' tech, but it is multiplied by the revolt risk in the province the supplies are moving through. It get worse though, because if supplies and/or fuel get to a province, and they're not used, they're sent back to the depot (capital/port), and you end up paying the 'supply tax' for the return journey as well, before what remains is put back into the central stockpile. There are also a whole host of factors which influence throughput: Infra level, Chief of Staff with logistics trait, economic laws, Supply Organisation tech, ...

For a more detailed explanation of the complicated HOI3 supply system, I suggest starting here:

Logistics reference - Hearts of Iron 3 Wiki

hoi3.paradoxwikis.com

While it's not entirely realistic it does often achieve the goal of giving you some entirely realistic headaches, and that's just the way I like it. And yes, I had to read a lot and experiment a lot to get a basic understanding of how this aspect of the game works. Even now, it still holds some secrets. Long story short, the further your units move from your capital, especially through occupied territory, the more supplies & fuel it will cost you to bring them the supplies & fuel they need.

(I know @roverS3 , you're impatiently waiting for the continuation of my Romanian AAR, and it will come! My work has slowed down dramatically my playing rate, but it didn't brought it to a halt. At this moment I am testing Romania as a Axis member against it's chances as a neutral Power, with the goal of regaining territorial integrity - Yes, the Soviets will give that Ultimatum in June 1940 forcing Romania to cede Basarabia, and Romania cannot stand alone for her historical province against the Soviets at that point.)

No worries. I've been working on my own work, and have had a rough year. (as I guess many people have with this pandemic) Sometimes life gets in the way. I look forward to your next instalment, but there is no rush, take your time.

Don't forget to have fun through all of the complexity,

RoverS3

 

[Poopfaust]

So they do use more Fuel when not moving/fighting? Okay, that was slightly depressing. Since several hours ago (see Posts above) when I believed they did not use more Fuel than indicated.., this entire evening no matter what I have been doing, I have been thinking about this (wargame addict).

Now you say they use more Fuel when moving..., well, I need a beer or three then going to bed. I hope I can sleep and not think about this too much.

 

[Poopfaust]

In HOI 4, the GUI tells you what the maximum amount of fuel each category of units uses when at Rest and when moving/fighting. I am mentioning that while anyone can complain about HOI 4, the GUI is probably the best GUI in the universe..,, so you are never really guessing, if you sort of know what you are doing.

 

[Poopfaust]

I just ran a bunch of tests with Germany Vanilla, RTW 1936.

(1) I let the game run for two weeks (January 1939) and the Supply stated Usage of approx 37. Fuel consistently had zero usage.

(2) I then had every land unit go to Berlin and/or the Prussian Port.., this had no impact on the usage numbers of Supplies/Fuel.

(3) I then had all airplanes, naval and land moving. Fuel usage went to about 10 and Supply usage went down to 28!!, yes, re-read that.

I looked at the Statictics tabs throughout my many test. None of the tabs for Fuel or Supplies every tied into any of the other tabs with Fuel and Supplies info. And the numbers in the main bar tracked to one tab, but not to any of the other tabs.

I then tried moving just independent units to see if I could decipher what was going on. I never could tie anything to the data I was seeing on Supplies and Fuel

So this is very disappointing to me.

So I guess my original question of what OOB can Germany sustain appears to be unanswerable (other than Manpower) due to none of the Fuel and Supplies information correlating to anything.

If I had to guess, I would have to assume that there appears to be almost no USAGE for Supplies or Fuel once its created. But still, there does seem to be some very very small bump in the Fuel/Supplies when you are moving lots of thing.

Any help at all would be appreciated.

 

[roverS3]

The problem is that whatever you're doing, the response of the system will be delayed, and the further from the capital your units, the longer the delay. When you move a unit, it will start using up more of it's own reserves, and send a request to the capital/port for fuel/supplies. The supplies in question will then first show up as into network, and only once they have reached the target will they show up as 'used' in the statistics. I believe the usage of supplies/fuel, when not moving, is related to attrition, so in your own territory, without adverse weather (frost), consumption of supplies will be low, & fuel consumption may be very close to 0. In case of ships/planes, if you change bases, the supplies/fuel sent to the original base will go all the way there and then back, whatever hasn't been used will be sent back to the stockpile. (this may be the reason why you saw a reduction in the amount of supplies leaving the stockpile.) Sometimes a day is skipped as a unit that is entirely topped up may not send a request for more supplies/fuel until the next day, or even a few days later. If a unit isn't moving, it may take even longer before fuel is sent out to it as the unit's stockpile is drawn down very slowly.

Once everything is in Berlin/Baltic port, you should see a reduction in supply usage across the board, but not immediately. Remember fuel/supplies move 1 province per day & whatever isn't used is sent back If you used Strategic Redeployment, fuel/supplies continue to be sent to the pre-SR location of the unit until the unit has arrived at it's destination. SR will really mess up your network. The fluctuations in supply needs reflect what happened days, or weeks, ago. I must also ask which stat you are using for 'supply usage'. The real number of supply usage is to be found by hovering the tool tip over the supplies in the top bar. The number in the production screen isn't a good indication. As every unit has 2 week's supplies, you could only start seeing possible shortages after 2 weeks. (or less in case of combat / movement).

The supply/fuel system is a complicated beast that adapts only slowly to changing facts on the ground, not to mention it's inherent irregularities. Some of it's inner workings are still not known. So yes, there's quite a bit of guessing involved. You do get a bit of a feeling for it after a while.

I would suggest mousing over the supply map to get a bit of a feeling for how the supply system is doing and where the supplies are in your network.

The best way to stockpile resources and fuel is to overproduce supplies in peacetime, and sell said supplies to the highest bidder, and using the proceeds to buy what you need, and what you'll need. I would suggest buying crude, as it is significantly cheaper than fuel, and Germany's problem isn't so much a lack of refining capacity, but a lack of crude supplies. Throughout the war, you can also keep trading for crude with Romania. The other resource you need a big pile of is rare materials. If you max out crude and rare materials before the war starts, you should be fine, as long as you keep enemy bombers at bay. (especially from Berlin). As a side note, I do remember an AAR where someone built a ridiculous number of Panzers, and they were running out of fuel all the time because the network couldn't handle the demand. Sadly, I don't remember how it was called.

I agree the UI isn't great. When you select a single unit, you can mouse over the fuel and supply bars of a unit to see how much it's using and how much it has in reserve. I'm sorry I couldn't give more precise data on the supply/fuel situation. I understand this can be a frustrating part of the HOI3 experience, especially in the beginning, when it really does seem like black magic and nothing else.

 

[Kovax]

First, as far as I know, returning supplies and fuel are not taxed per province. The tax on the outbound supplies is daunting enough as it is, particularly if you're 30+ provinces from your capital and losing a fraction of it in each province (cost of transportation).

The one huge difference between HOI3 and HOI4 is stockpiles. In HOI3, you can build up a massive stockpile of resources (Germany can trade with the Soviets and the US for Metal and Rare Materials before the war, then cancel all trades with the US just BEFORE war breaks out to prevent the sinking of a lot of convoys). Then you get major stockpile increases if/when you loot the capitals of various countries. With a little work in advance, Germany can sustain levels of production far in excess of its eventual resource limitations for the duration of the war. Expect to be in the red for the latter half of the game, but you shouldn't run out if you stocked up in advance.

The other "detail" is that unless you build an armor-heavy force, Germany will never run out of fuel. Every country in the world converts coal to oil at a rate in 1936 roughly comparable to Germany's historical conversion rates in 1945, and it increases from there with technology. Basically, if you run out of fuel as Germany, you're doing something wrong.

.....and then you decide to take the Western Soviet Union and puppet the rest. Suddenly, your supply network has to send supplies to all of those former Soviet units all the way to Vladivostok, over the atrocious infrastructure in between, and you notice that your maxed out stockpile of 99,999 supplies will run out in less than 30 days. That happens despite your desperate attempts to boost supply production at the expense of everything else, as the supplies crawl across the entire length of the SU, one province per day, and you end up with units all over the map going low on supplies. Then the supplies reach the far end of the SU, and all of that excess you've pumped into the system for the past couple of months comes flooding back, overflowing your supply stockpile. Enjoy.

 

[roverS3]

First, as far as I know, returning supplies and fuel are not taxed per province. The tax on the outbound supplies is daunting enough as it is, particularly if you're 30+ provinces from your capital and losing a fraction of it in each province (cost of transportation).

I wasn't sure about this, thanks for confirming there is no tax on the return trip.

The one huge difference between HOI3 and HOI4 is stockpiles. In HOI3, you can build up a massive stockpile of resources (Germany can trade with the Soviets and the US for Metal and Rare Materials before the war, then cancel all trades with the US just BEFORE war breaks out to prevent the sinking of a lot of convoys). Then you get major stockpile increases if/when you loot the capitals of various countries. With a little work in advance, Germany can sustain levels of production far in excess of its eventual resource limitations for the duration of the war. Expect to be in the red for the latter half of the game, but you shouldn't run out if you stocked up in advance.

Yes, stockpiling is OP in HOI3, so I'm not surprised this is the case. I haven't played much as Germany, and when I did, I didn't properly stockpile, so I never saw this with my own eyes.

The other "detail" is that unless you build an armor-heavy force, Germany will never run out of fuel. Every country in the world converts coal to oil at a rate in 1936 roughly comparable to Germany's historical conversion rates in 1945, and it increases from there with technology. Basically, if you run out of fuel as Germany, you're doing something wrong.

This is a bit sad, as OTL Germany was very low on fuel for the second half of the war. Of course, getting the fuel to the front can still present problems.

.....and then you decide to take the Western Soviet Union and puppet the rest. Suddenly, your supply network has to send supplies to all of those former Soviet units all the way to Vladivostok, over the atrocious infrastructure in between, and you notice that your maxed out stockpile of 99,999 supplies will run out in less than 30 days. That happens despite your desperate attempts to boost supply production at the expense of everything else, as the supplies crawl across the entire length of the SU, one province per day, and you end up with units all over the map going low on supplies. Then the supplies reach the far end of the SU, and all of that excess you've pumped into the system for the past couple of months comes flooding back, overflowing your supply stockpile. Enjoy.

Supplying units in Siberia overland from Moscow, let alone from Berlin, is a nightmare. (as it is in real life...) The infrastructure is bad, and the distance is insane.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

I find some limitations of HOI3 better than HOI4's "this is how many men you can supply". In real life warfare is not precise mathematics, and when ever they tried to do precise mathematics, enemy refused to cooperate and screwed things up. How developed infrastructure is, how damaged it is, how good your leaders are at managing supplies, and ofc what kind of division compositions you have and how many of what etc etc. So many variables. And sometimes enemy defends place X harder than ever before, so that eats some supplies.

I liked how during Operation Barbarossa i managed to destroy innumerable numbers of Soviet divisions and make enormous process. It was incredibly exciting! I had beaten them! But then things just continued. They just kept retreating, i kept advancing. And more i advanced, worse my supply situation became. In the end, since i had made so good process, i refused to give up my gains. I dug in and did what i could to improve my supply situation. At times i retreated because units no longer had enough supplies to be able to fight.
And well, it went quite like WW2. Bitter fighting, all the time believing that if i just manage to fight little longer, wait until i get just a little more troops (or supplies to be able to use what troops i had), then i can beat them. But then allies landed to west. I almost managed to hold Berlin long enough for allied troops to make it there before Soviets. Fighting that lost war was brilliant experience. There are not many games where fighting on after you have lost is fun, but in HOI3 it is - at least with BlackIce mod, which i use. It is incredibly brutal mod, propably hardest and most complex of all mods for any Paradox grand strategy. But boy is it brilliant when you have learned it. Especially when combined with Third Reich Events and GGA mod, it was by far most immersive WW2 experience i have experienced.

I think it literally took me something like 2 real life years to learn HOI3. And still there are some things left to learn.

But sadly i have to say that scale of HOI3 is a problem. I want to fight another campaign as Germany, to victory or defeat. But it takes so, so long that i have not done Germany campaign for a long time. Its sad, but i kind of enjoy playing as minors more than majors, simply because there is still so much depth, but scale is small enough to micro manage everything i have without playing on pause more than i play on any other speed. Which is why i would love to see Hearts of Iron 4. Not that weird WW2 strategy game that is called Hearts of Iron 4, but game that evolves from HOI3 and reduces repetitive/unnecessary micro or at least amount of clicks i need to make to micro something. UI i am already used to, but ofc that should be improved as well.

 

[Poopfaust]

Again, incredible board, thank you all.

1) Kovac - That comment about the Soviet Union after you defeat it. Are you saying that if I stay calm for a couple of months, everything will be fine with supplies?

2) I am still foggy on Puppets, but I am good with that.

3) RomanRuler. Thank you for your input, but I feel the exact opposite. In the world of wargaming, I love the intricacies and I like to know how to calculate the impact of everything. In other words, if something crazy is happening, I want to know why it is happening and what I can do about for the next go-around. That is why I was addicted to HOI 4, it all works and most things are clearly explained and the data available (again, assuming you spent several 100s hours of research and 2000+ hours of gameplay!!).

 

[Poopfaust]

I have been doing many many more tests on Fuel/Supplies using the Custom Game thing. And as you state above, there really is no way to know how large an army Germany can sustain, which is disappointing. But the WIKI OOB is helpful because I assume that means that worked for somebody.

I do have two questions on the comments above. (1) I continue to see references to Germany needing Rare Metals (RM). I do not understand this because I thought Rare are only used by your Factories. And you know your factories, so you can predict the RM you need and at the start of 1936, Germany has a positive influx of RM. Now when I start conquering stuff, I guess that is when you run out of RM? Oh yeah, I guess that is what you are saying. So the conquered countries must not have enough RM to cover their industry, and that is why Germany suffers later on from not having RM?

 

[Kovax]

If you remain calm, everything will eventually sort itself out to the point of at least being less of a disaster....but whether it's "fine" or not depends on too many other factors. Meanwhile, expect at least 2 months where you don't have frequent supply interruptions to units in all directions from the capital.

Being "foggy" about puppets is normal. I've been playing this fairly regularly since a month or so after release, and it's still a bit vague at times, especially after it changed so drastically in the expansions. For example, until the last patch for Semper Fi, Germany's supply system would be merged with Hungary's if Hungary became an Axis member, but Italy would remain separate. Go figure. Most of the major issues were fixed, but not all, and we're still finding new ones.

I still end up with an occasional garrison unit that's out of supply more often than not, after more than a year in place, while supplies move past it on either side. The supply system ranges from brilliant to abysmally stupid, sometimes oscillating back and forth between the two, and just when you think you understand it, something else weird happens to shatter your illusion of knowledge. I'd still rather have this than a supply system where only the local supply limits matter, and HOI3 has "Arcade Mode" for those players who prefer to ignore infrastructure entirely and just have supplies magically transported to the units at the front as needed.

As for a sustainable OOB, you need enough units on the front to provide a continuous line of divisions, plus be able to mass at least two sizable groups for breakthroughs. Those groups then push forward, drive at least 3 provinces deep, and then turn in to create a pocket before the units on the front line can escape through the last open province. The moment you close the pocket, expect severe all-out attacks from both inside and outside the pocket, with spoiler attacks on adjacent units that might be able to relieve those holding the line. I much prefer to create deep pockets, with a 2-province thick wall of units to reduce multi-direction attacks and massing against any individual province. Air units then attack the enemy units attempting to break the encirclement, causing them to wear down quickly, until you can reduce and eliminate the pocket. That can net you 10-20 units at a shot, and then you can let your units recover while you set up for the next encirclement. As the Soviet Army gets reduced, you may not need as many units to continue the drive, or can limit your advances to specific targets to push them over the edge. Pushing the Soviets back across a broad front (which the AI is programmed to do), rather than overrunning or encircling and eliminating, will almost inevitably result in Germany running out of Manpower, and losing.

At this point, I much prefer running minor countries, to see how much effect I can have on the bigger picture despite a severely limited set of tools to work with. The system is easily exploited, such as placing a wargoal for a region that your bigger ally is occupying, thereby getting freebie land that you didn't take yourself, so I have my own house rules to limit what I can and can't do, or conditions that need to be met before I can do something.

I also do a few things to prevent the occasionally wonky AI from breaking the game early, such as sending a transport ship to Germany's northern coast, in order to take the capital of Norway for Germany, otherwise Germany is likely to send 100+ brigades of armor and motorized units to Norway to starve in the horrible infrastructure of the mountainous interior, while leaving the Russian Front practically unguarded. I've seen Germany bleed itself dry on Manpower through attrition before the start of Barbarossa, sending unit after unit to Norway as each one lost its fighting ability, eventually leaving only a handful of HQs and a couple of actual divisions to cover the entire Eastern Front. The Soviets were in Berlin in 6 months, delayed only by the AI's inability to properly coordinate the movements of the practically unopposed Red Army.

Basically, the game really needed one more patch to fix the problems.

 

[roverS3]

Yes, rares are only used by your factories and in peacetime you have a slight surplus of rares. However, as you get close to war, you'll change economic laws to increase the amount of available IC (even without new IC builds). This increase is not accompanied by a similar increase in resource production. ('War Economy gives +25% IC, but just +10% resources; 'Total Economic Warfare' gives you +50% IC and only +25% resources.) When the economy is ramped up all the way, you'll have a significant shortfall of rare materials & metal. This only gets worse as you conquer more territory in Europe, as Austria, metropolitan France, the Benelux (w/o colonies), Norway, and Poland also don't have enough rare materials for their industry in wartime. Of course that also depends on your occupation policy for these areas. And then there is strategic bombing of your stockpiles which the Allies will be attempting with increasing intensity.

The colonial powers get lots of rares from their colonies, and the others buy them, usually from the UK, the US, or the USSR, these three nations have large surpluses of rare materials.

That said, it makes sense for Germany to add some IC early on as you can trade for and stockpile rares ahead of time. You can buy rares from the Soviets right up to the point you declare war with them. As stated before, you can get good trade deals for relatively large amounts of Metal from Sweden, and these can be maintained throughout the war. You will not have enough rares to run all of your industry in the mid to late war if you do not trade for them when you can. When you run out of a resources, factories start to shut down.

Basically, the game really needed one more patch to fix the problems.

I concur. TFH is close to what the final version of HOI3 should have been, it's really one good patch away.