Surrender

[unmerged(19877)]

A consideration for HoI 2 is the implementation of troops surrendering before they are pulverized into dust. Millions of troops surrendered to their respective enemies; yet, in HoI units seem to operate with absolute fanaticism - never surrendering & retreating only when ordered to do so.

Perhaps, during combat the unit's leader skill along with its strength and organization is checked against some sort of logical variable. If it fails the check, then the unit surrenders. The unit in question is effectively destroyed without having to fight to the bitter end.

Furthermore, I hope it would add some depth to combat. The importance of solid leadership, especially for valuable units in precarious situations, is greatly increased.

 

[SecondReich]

Yes, I agree. Encircled units should be able to compute how likely they are to breakout, and if the odds are bad, they should surrender.

 

[Zanza]

Encircled units are losing org and are easy to defeat to simulate that. Or are there many historic cases were troops just surrendered while they were still in supply and not encircled?

 

[killerdude11]

strength does not represent number of troops.

So if it reaches zero, it doesn't mean that everyone died, but that they hae been demoralized enough to stop fighting completly. Also when u surroumd a unit and it reaches 0 org, and u send in 1 unit, that does the job, it doesn't mean that in one day 500,000 troops were massacered in one province

 

[unmerged(27944)]

I think the computing should be based on many factors:
I) What kind of enemy do we fight? ( for example, between soviets and nazist, in Hitler's and Stalin's will, there were asked no quarter and there were no given quarter: simply they fight until the end. ) It is a swore enemy? It should be based on propaganda: if in Germany nazist party officials says that the only good soviet is a dead soviet, the Wehrmacht guys will fight with fanatism. Americans against japanese troops: few would surrender.
II) What is the state of mother Country? When foreign troops invade the national territory ( I would be a nice thing as in Victoria is, for example, to introduce a population factory: in a province you have the majority of the pops of the same culture in your Country? It is considered national territory ), it can be considered a factor; Italian troops defending Roma against ( sci-fi history ... ) German troops would give no quarter to the enemy, and they likely die in the struggle to defend the capital rather than living in the shame of the defeat.
III) How tired are troops? ( organization already express this factor, I think, even if a little too in general ) And how are they tired of fighting ...
IV) The general ability ( but I think the most influetials are the low grade officers; the general can coordinate the efforts of the other officers he comand, but if they are unable to impose their will, the privates will retreat ) ...

And some other things like that.
It took me a long to write this down, I'm a little tired ( one o'clock in the morning ) and it's difficult to find the correct words from italian language .

Buonanotte.

 

[ashbery76]

The problem with HOI was most divisions fought to the last few men, in reality 99% of divisions in WW2 had only 15% losses or less in most battles, not even the SS or Guard Divisions fought to the last, untill the final months. .

 

[unmerged(27944)]

The problem with HOI was most divisions fought to the last few men, in reality 99% of divisions in WW2 had only 15% losses or less in most battles, not even the SS or Guard Divisions fought to the last, untill the final months. .

I remember you that sometimes, in France, in 1944, there were episodes of single battle that cost the entire occupation force of a single stupid city ( a small one too ... ). Hitlerjugend reinforces and Wehrmacht troops. I can remember battles where only two german soldiers surrendered, the rest died.

Let's not talk about italian north african forces. The Ariete division fight until last man, as much as Folgore the airborne troops division did.
Or much like "Mussolini's Boys", as the English called them ( young men, almost 18 years old, who joint as volounteers the army, they were selected strictly because there were not much supplies for the army, and they were send to reinforce italian army in Libia ), did.

 

[killerdude11]

The problem with HOI was most divisions fought to the last few men, in reality 99% of divisions in WW2 had only 15% losses or less in most battles, not even the SS or Guard Divisions fought to the last, untill the final months. .

what about the japs. How are you going to simulate retreat while keeping the Jap honor of fighting to the last

 

[unmerged(19877)]

strength does not represent number of troops.

So if it reaches zero, it doesn't mean that everyone died, but that they hae been demoralized enough to stop fighting completly. Also when u surroumd a unit and it reaches 0 org, and u send in 1 unit, that does the job, it doesn't mean that in one day 500,000 troops were massacered in one province

Not certain if this is the case. If strength is not a representation of the number of troops physically capable of fighting, then what does it represent? And if strength is it a reflection of morale or willingness to fight, then what does organization represent?

Furthermore, does a unit have to be completely surrounded before it surrenders? Or is there a possibility a unit might surrender under other circumstances? i.e., attacked from two or more sides, failed amphibious assault? Additionally, unless you willingly force a unit to retreat, a unit will not retreat (or surrender) even if its strength and organization levels are dangerously low. As it stands, I am uncertain if 'surrendering' is accurately reflected in HoI combat; particularly, where leader skills are concerned. Most units did not fight to the last man but some did. This seems to be as much a question of leadership as training.

Incidentally, perhaps there could be some sort of forced defence or forced attack command to offset a surrender feature, if implemented in HoI 2. The success of such actions might be determined by considering the organization level & leadership of a unit against some sort of logical variable. A successfull check and the unit maintains its orders despite heavy losses, fighting to the bitter end.

Comments, rotten tomatoes ...?

 

[unmerged(26982)]

But I have a major problem with my games. My troops fight to the death when attacking. If I dont check on the progress of their battle to see if they are winning or not, then I have no more armies. Its not only my ground forces, but my navy as well. I lost 8 cruisers once, just like that. *POOF* They were gone. I can see losing 1, 2, 3, or even 4, but you think if your task force takes 50% casualties RIGHT OUTSIDE OF A GERMAN PORT, you would make a dash for the port. Troops should retreat if they are taking massive casualties, unless they are on a peninsula or in an inlet with no escape. And ships should be able to break off an engagement and move to the next sea zone without "retreating."

 

[unmerged(19877)]

what about the japs. How are you going to simulate retreat while keeping the Jap honor of fighting to the last

I believe the Japanese code of 'no retreat, no surrender' is part fact, part fiction. There is no doubt in my mind the Japanese offered the Allies tremendous resistance in the Pacific campaign; often to the last man. However, Japanese troops did surrender to Allied forces on more than one occasion.

 

[Cpack]

Remember, that there're no prisoners in the game (rules)

I think it already was abstracted in the game.

For example if you surround enemy troops and they fall to 0 Org, they're "annihilated" after further attacks.

But wat does annihilating means ?
I don't think that there're all mens in divisions dying, they have also surrendered, they left the battlefield and dissapeared

 

[unmerged(13914)]

I believe the Japanese code of 'no retreat, no surrender' is part fact, part fiction. There is no doubt in my mind the Japanese offered the Allies tremendous resistance in the Pacific campaign; often to the last man. However, Japanese troops did surrender to Allied forces on more than one occasion.

Japanese troops surrendered in far larger numbers than those who died fighting. The famed "Kwantung Army" in Manchuria surrendered at least 500,000 after a few days fighting the Red Army in 1945.

Successfully surrendering is usually a function of unit size. Very small groups of defenders often wind up killed when trying to surrender -- the battle is going fast and furious. A whole battalion, or regiment, or division, stands a much better chance because there are pauses in the fighting, an opportunity for a truce. The battles on Pacific islands involved small units down to individual squads in caves, but later in the war as the battles got larger, there were more surrenders.

 

[Pkunzipper]

IMHO to simulates army surrender PE should add a "morale" parameter to units...
Victories and not being in battle should raise it, while being under heavy air strikes and losing many men should lower it...

 

[unmerged(19877)]

Remember, that there're no prisoners in the game (rules)

I think it already was abstracted in the game.

For example if you surround enemy troops and they fall to 0 Org, they're "annihilated" after further attacks.

But wat does annihilating means ?
I don't think that there're all mens in divisions dying, they have also surrendered, they left the battlefield and dissapeared

For the record, I am in no uncertain terms advocating the inclusion of prisoners in HoI 2. Rather, I ask whether or not it is necessary to continue a battle to the point of '0' strength or '0' org in order to effectively destroy a unit, i.e. is the act of surrender as a combat option accurately reflected in HoI? Or does it need to be addressed in HoI 2?

 

[Cpack]

For the record, I am in no uncertain terms advocating the inclusion of prisoners in HoI 2. Rather, I ask whether or not it is necessary to continue a battle to the point of '0' strength or '0' org in order to effectively destroy a unit, i.e. is the act of surrender as a combat option accurately reflected in HoI? Or does it need to be addressed in HoI 2?

Don't know if its reflected directly, it seems not to be, but how to discribe the following situation.

A group of 12 divs with 0 Org were surrounded by enemy troops. At the moment, when a single enemy division reaches the surrounded province, all 12 divs dissapear.
Maybe this could mean that they're all in prison now (?).

 

[steveh11]

Don't know if its reflected directly, it seems not to be, but how to discribe the following situation.

A group of 12 divs with 0 Org were surrounded by enemy troops. At the moment, when a single enemy division reaches the surrounded province, all 12 divs dissapear.
Maybe this could mean that they're all in prison now (?).

That's the way I always envisioned it.

Steve.