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ajm317

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After finally completing operation Sealion and taking London in my first game as Germany the UK finally surrendered...to Italy.

So obviously I don't understand how surrender works. So how does it work? What determines who they surrender to? Does the AI get a choice?

Kind of annoying that bits and pieces of Great Britain are green now.
 

unmerged(170877)

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Check Africa and the middle east. If Italy managed to capture Cairo, pushed even eastwards into Iraq, and succesfully linked up its North African and Ethiopian forces, then it's probably why the UK surrendered to Italy, due to Italy capturing more African VPs.
 

ajm317

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Check Africa and the middle east. If Italy managed to capture Cairo, pushed even eastwards into Iraq, and succesfully linked up its North African and Ethiopian forces, then it's probably why the UK surrendered to Italy, due to Italy capturing more African VPs.

Why should that matter?

Italy does indeed have some African VP's, but no more than 15. London is worth 30 by itself.
 

derfinsterling

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Did you take London, but the surrender happened later?
The British capital was probably moved to North Africa, then conquered by Italy.

A country surrenders to whoever occupies the *acting* capital.
 

ajm317

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Did you take London, but the surrender happened later?
The British capital was probably moved to North Africa, then conquered by Italy.

A country surrenders to whoever occupies the *acting* capital.

The capture of London was what triggered the UK's surrender. I was at 90% surrender progress before I took it.
 

DerKomtur

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Are you really sure a nation surrenders to the nation capturing the acting capital?

I a multiplayer game with Jap and Ger both France and UK surrendered to Japan. Japan did not capture any European victory province, only indochina (Hanoi + Saigon have 15 points, less than Paris alone) and india. I'm not 100% sure but the UK capital was somewhere in (unoccupied) scotland.
The only advantage the Japanese had vs both nation was they started capturing provinces right on May 1st, 1939, while Germany had to defeat Poland, Denmark and Belgium first.

Therefore, my theory of surrender to whom:
It depends on who captures a province / victory province first.
I don't know if it has to be a victory province.

This opens the question what happens when someone temporarily gets some provinces.
 

unmerged(129069)

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UK surrendering and giving it's realms to only one country sounds ridiculous... having provinces in pretty much every corner of the world, I'd say that it would sound better if each theatre/puppetable area would surrender at it's own.
 

ajm317

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So I went back and replayed the capture of London from my last autosave. This time I saved the game immediately after the battle of London was won, but before I occupied the province. London is occupied 1 hour after the save, and the UK surrenders at midnight, which is several hours later.

The UK is reliably surrendering to Italy (5 for 5). Things that clearly do NOT affect it:

1. Capital, acting or otherwise. London is the capital before I occupy it, upon occupation in the last attempt the capital moved to Calcutta, which obviously Italy could not take.

2. Victory points. Italy only has 7, Germany has 55.

3. Number of divisions in occupied territory. Italy has 19 divisions in occupied territory while Germany has 17. Italy's puppet Ethiopia has a further 8. After splitting a bunch of divisions Germany had 30 divisions in occupied territory, but there was no effect.

At this point the only thing I can find that makes any sense is number of brigades in occupied territory. I think that Germany has 58, Italy has 61, and Ethiopia has 19. I haven't had a chance to test this by shipping more German brigades to GB though.
 

ajm317

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If the new capital is Calcutta, perhaps it's surrendering to the nearest power?

Again no. Nearest occupying power is Japan, which holds a UK province just two provinces over. Further, Germany holds Iraq and most of Persia. Nearest power with owned land would be either Germany (which has completed the conquest of the USSR) or Japan, probably Japan.

If it goes by distance between capitals it would be Japan.

It could possibly be something like, nearest power as measured by distance between capitals which holds a victory province, but:

1. That would be silly.
2. I'm not convince Berlin is farther from Calcutta then Rome.
 

Hardcore_gamer

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All of you guys are wrong i think.

The country's surrender to whoever finishes of the country.

So if country A takes so many VP's away from country B that it surrenders after loosing only 1 more victory point, and country C takes that last VP then country A will surrender to country C instead of country B.

I personally think this is extremely stupid and i don't get it how Paradox thought having a surrender system like this was a good idea.
 

ajm317

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All of you guys are wrong i think.

The country's surrender to whoever finishes of the country.

So if country A takes so many VP's away from country B that it surrenders after loosing only 1 more victory point, and country C takes that last VP then country A will surrender to country C instead of country B.

No, this isn't it. As I said, in my save game Germany captures London which forces British surrender to Italy. Italy does not take another VP in the intervening 8 hours.

im curious how this works too. have you done a total occupied province count? does italy simply control more UK provinces than anyone else?

I have not. This could potentially be it, I'm not sure. Could go either way. Germany owns roughly 70% of GB, while Italy holds a lot of East African provinces, as well as a few on the Arabian peninsula. I'd have to look at the map. (Which I will do this evening.)
 
Last edited:

208

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Pure speculation: Maybe it totals up the enemy-held VPs in order of province ID #, and the nation that happened to own the province that pushed it over the national unity threshold gets the surrender.
 

KonradRichtmark

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A country surrenders to whoever occupies the *acting* capital.

The country's surrender to whoever finishes of the country.

Both incorrect in the light of my 1.3 experience. Individual outcomes don't really prove much. Correlation does not prove causation unless you can isolate the possible causes and, by repeated testing, show a different outcome when the thing that (supposedly) decides it goes one way during one try and the other way during an otherwise identical try.

I did some semi-scientific testing of it on the fly in my current German game. I had edited away the Vichy event, the resulting being that France will behave just like any other country when collapsing.

First time, France went over the surrender threshold when I captured Paris. However, while I was mopping up Poland, Italy had made impressive progress on its front against France. France surrendered to Italy, which held more territory in raw number of provinces than I did. I reloaded and repeated, and every time, the same happened.

Ergo, it is not random. Neither does it depend on who takes the "last" VP.

Second time, I didn't take Paris when I could, but surrendered it. Rest of my army surged forwards to grab as much land as possible, expecting that whatever I wouldn't grab, the Italians would get. After having taken pretty much what I wanted, I finally took Paris. This time, France surrendered to me.

I'm not entirely positive I had a bigger occupied province count than Italy, I didn't do a full province count. It's quite likely though just looking from the relative sizes of the grey and green blobs.

The hypothesis that would best explain my observations is that raw biggest number of occupied provinces is what matters, but I don't claim positive proof for that.
 

ajm317

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Both incorrect in the light of my 1.3 experience. Individual outcomes don't really prove much. Correlation does not prove causation unless you can isolate the possible causes and, by repeated testing, show a different outcome when the thing that (supposedly) decides it goes one way during one try and the other way during an otherwise identical try.

I did some semi-scientific testing of it on the fly in my current German game. I had edited away the Vichy event, the resulting being that France will behave just like any other country when collapsing.

First time, France went over the surrender threshold when I captured Paris. However, while I was mopping up Poland, Italy had made impressive progress on its front against France. France surrendered to Italy, which held more territory in raw number of provinces than I did. I reloaded and repeated, and every time, the same happened.

Ergo, it is not random. Neither does it depend on who takes the "last" VP.

Second time, I didn't take Paris when I could, but surrendered it. Rest of my army surged forwards to grab as much land as possible, expecting that whatever I wouldn't grab, the Italians would get. After having taken pretty much what I wanted, I finally took Paris. This time, France surrendered to me.

I'm not entirely positive I had a bigger occupied province count than Italy, I didn't do a full province count. It's quite likely though just looking from the relative sizes of the grey and green blobs.

The hypothesis that would best explain my observations is that raw biggest number of occupied provinces is what matters, but I don't claim positive proof for that.

This does seem plausible to me given my experience in my game. When I get home tonight I'll try to test the theory.
 

Traks

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ajm - if you badly want to test, use cheat of giving provinces to new owner, and give yourself some 10-20 Italian captured or edit save.

But I agree and behaviour does show that total number of provinces is counted.
Not sure if country annexing even needs to capture one VP, but it is also possible requirement.