Suprize! European freebie events.

[Mad King James]

I think if a city was captured by a group of adventurers who were rather loosely tied to the government, it should just be a freebie event for both the AI and humans. This is because historically the government (IE you) had nothing to do with it, and also that the often the nations in question were extremely ill-prepared for both European weapons and their conduct in warfare. (the concept of seizing a city and fortifying it as opposed to loot-and-pillage-and-run concept of warfare which caused so many cities to fall to the Portugese).

As such, the following:

Portugal should annex upon discovery: Hormuz, Goa, Malacca (first releasing Johore), Kilwa, Mombassa, Zanzibar, Mozambique, Sofala
and Vassalize upon discovery: Kongo, Malindi, Cochin

Before you start screaming, hear me out: These nations were wholly unprepared for the Portugese, both technologically and doctrinally. Their concept of war was largely limited to trade disputes and raiding excursions, so fortifying and holding territory was not in their realm of experience. The Portugese had a free ride basically as the leadership fled the city and waited for them to leave, which never happened, so a small band of adventurers could basically conquer half the Indian Ocean. After this first experience however, all the states who were affected by the Portugese learned their lessons and were all the stronger for it, and eventually drove out the Portugese. Thus for instance after the Portugese have had their way with the Indian ocean, the remaining states should be bumped up a techgroup, get big naval and land tech bonuses (The Bitter Lesson of the Portugese) and some like Oman should get huge swathes of CBs on Portugese posessions.

Spain should annex upon discovery: Aztec Empire, or at least get the coastline for free, get 50 thousand free infantry (Tlaxcalans join with Cortez) and declare war on the Aztec Empire. Again this was a special circumstance, as the Aztecs had the misfortune of having Cortez in their prophecies as a returning deity, and again being doctrinally wholly unprepared for European warfare until it was far too late. In this circumstance Cortez should be a general, not a conquistador, and would appear I would assume on the 50k stack that just appeared on the coastline. If we had a more realistic setup in central America I would prefer it actually if the Spanish annexed-by-event all the central american nations on the west coast that had yet to be conquered by the Aztecs (and any troops they had) instead of having everything belong to the Aztecs at start.

 

[Garbon]

Sorry, I'm going to have to suggest a war and/or control of at least one province be necessary.

 

[Garbon]

Besides, Portugal didn't really want Kilwa. They just sort of trashed the area and then left the survivors to be destroyed by the Zimba

 

[unmerged(21523)]

Portugal already has events to inherit Ormuz and Cochin and vassalize Kongo. I'm in favor of allowing Malacca and Goa to be ceded upon occupation. However, I believe most of the East African city-states were never annexed by the Portuguese but vassalized to them. I agree the defection of the Tlaxcalans in Mexico should be modelled.

 

[Mad King James]

Well such a modelling WAS proposed but never implimented, why don't we?

 

[Garbon]

Because no one actually wanted to do it?

I definitely shirked what I said I'd do for Portugal and East Africa. o

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Even if such events are impliemnted they should have an option to not go along and there should be some kind of carrot (other than relations boost) for going along or no human would ever chose to go along, especially one controlling Goa.

 

[Mad King James]

How could the ruler of Goa have possibly avoided it though? I'm all for HISTORICALLY PLAUSIBLE ways out, but...

 

[unmerged(2456)]

How could the ruler of Goa have possibly avoided it though? I'm all for HISTORICALLY PLAUSIBLE ways out, but...

Enough resisitance and you'll tire out any army even if you never win a single battle.

But also there were some who could have held it or atleast given Portugal a fight that might make them seriously pay for taking it from them, likely hampering Portugals efforts at exapnsion for years to come elsewhere (ie spending money and resoruces just to suprress and aquire Goa would sap its resoruces enough that it wouldn't be worth it, even it they militarly could hold it).

 

[binTravkin]

Im okay with your proposal, but I think that there really should be some conditions.

Definitely war as Garbon suggested, probably some more.

You know human players might exploit it by example going into North Africa as Spain or Portu and reaching Cote d'Oro thru Sahara, thus earning the provinces and furthermore - native army which could be quite big and quite a boost* to POR/SPA/whomever.

So I'd say so:

Conditions:
1.War
2.Controlled province or two (for more advanced nations which could resist a little)

Results:
1.Country secedes** all or some (for more advanced nations which could resist a little) provinces
2.Country becomes a vassal.

Regarding second choices - AI should always go for it for historical result, but a human could like to not, thus it'd be best if those events had 2 copies (one for AI without choice B***, one for human with one).

*For the same reason, SPA should not recieve 50k troops upon tlaxcalans joining - the count should be reduced to some 10-20k to represent NOT their actual numbers, but their relative strenght.

**Secedes, to not give the incoming european nation it's army, navy and discoveries.

***Choice B should then get some good things to offset the other one - like:
1.+100 ducats
2.+1 stab
3.+1 Land (?), to portrait not-so-colonial behaviour
4.-1(2)BB, to portrait nation being "nice".
5.+200 relations with the country
6.probably some diplomatical thing like "guarantee independence", which would be nice if some other player/AI lurks around just to grab those provinces.


Also - the event should only fire for country which makes the discovery FIRST, because the natives could learn from the nation (if it chooses to be in good relations and trade instead of conquering).

 

[Sute]{h]

War shouldn't be the requirement for an AI, since the AI never declares war on these nations. Don't know if they are on the AI to-kill-list though. If their not they most certainly should be. At least before we start making all sorts of events.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Hernan Cortes should still be a conquistador, as he was not part of the army of Spain. The conquest was done by veteran soldier and adventurers under royal concession, not by the army of Spain.

 

[binTravkin]

Hernan Cortes should still be a conquistador, as he was not part of the army of Spain. The conquest was done by veteran soldier and adventurers under royal concession, not by the army of Spain.

So, how would that look ingame?

 

[unmerged(45766)]

I have several concerns here.

Conditions/gameplay
- if no conditions are put, it's too much exploitable for human players
- if conditions are put, the AI risks never getting them ; as said, the AI never declares war on them, and is not able to take the control of the targetted province(s)
- a work-around would be to have two parts in the triggers, one for the human, and one for the ai
- but, on-discovery secession needs to get some date limits, as an european country can get the maps of all Asia in a few years if willing to dump money in gifts (and I defenitely would do so if I knew such events are awaiting me)

Historical plausibility
- what if it's not Portugal discovering Zanzibar but Venice, or the Dutch republic, or England ? Wouldn't they be able to wrestle the control-ownership of those places, instead of Portugal ? It becomes impossible to plan secedeprovince commands in such circumstances, and there are not enough tags to use for such limited purpose (releasing a one-province country whose only purpose is to be annexed).
- who owns the province at the time of the arrival of the europeans ? Would the Ottomans lose Zanzibar or Goa to the Portuguese ? Or the Moghols ? China, anyone ?

Also, are you sure Portugal's conquests and dominance in the Indian Ocean was the fact of small groups of adventurers on whom the portuguese crown had no control ? I've been told in another thread that Portugal devoted many men, ships and ressource to that. I agree that Cortez's conquest of Mexico was really astonishing and the fruit of exceptional circumstances (especially given his limited forces - he was lucky in getting the support of local warriors), but it was not always the case in other regions.

However, the idea of the country not having much control on some conquests is very good, and I approve it, I just wonder about the consequences for the aI, gameplay & historical plausibiilty.

 

[Sute]{h]

IIRC the discovered trigger checks if ANY european country knows the province NOT if the receiving country know the province.

Also to avoid "map trading" we could simply add that the seazone south of Africa must be known. There is no way to trade maps for that zone before someone explores it with an explorer. Also it makes sense. For the Europeans to reach SE Asia they must know the searoute south of Africa.

 

[binTravkin]

Also to avoid "map trading" we could simply add that the seazone south of Africa must be known. There is no way to trade maps for that zone before someone explores it with an explorer. Also it makes sense. For the Europeans to reach SE Asia they must know the searoute south of Africa.

Very good idea!
That would also kill possible exploit to get those freebies by conquering African states thru Morocco pathway!

 

[unmerged(29041)]

So, how would that look ingame?

Exactly as it does now. Cortes is a conquistador, and is only worth something outside Europe.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

I agree that Cortez's conquest of Mexico was really astonishing and the fruit of exceptional circumstances (especially given his limited forces - he was lucky in getting the support of local warriors), but it was not always the case in other regions.

It was not so exceptional as it worked exactly the same with the Inca and Pizarro. The indians were not militarily prepared, were divided, weakened by the plagues, and their own beliefs. Besides they could not believe that 200 dirty, uncivilized men, constituted such a danger until it was too late. The Spaniards on the other hand had learnt to exploit the enemy divisions in the war of Granada, and were masters of the irregular war that the moors, really tough warriors, had tought them. After the war of Granada the Spanish military was the best of Europe, as they soon demonstrated in the Italian wars. The adventurous character of the conquistadores meant that they did not have the moral restrain that the chain of command and the responsability of the monarch introduce in the army, i.e. they were allowed unlimited pillage.

I think it is all right to give Spain a foot-hold, and to have some AI only events to help the conquest. But not to a player. It is already very easy to conquer them by force. As it is now (conquest of Tenochtitlan, and the Inca events) is more than adequate. In vanilla I conquer the whole lot in about three years starting with just 40,000 infantry in two armies of 20,000. At level 9, the Indians don't have a chance.

 

[unmerged(45766)]

After the war of Granada the Spanish military was the best of Europe, as they soon demonstrated in the Italian wars.

OT, but I was thinking that during the italian wars, most of the "spanish" troops were mercenaries, mostly german.

Also to avoid "map trading" we could simply add that the seazone south of Africa must be known. There is no way to trade maps for that zone before someone explores it with an explorer. Also it makes sense. For the Europeans to reach SE Asia they must know the searoute south of Africa.

Yes. Better ask one of two sea-zones (there're two possible seazones to go through).
An alternative is to ask the ownership (or at the very least control) of one (or several) other provinces. For example, Egypt & Nile( ). So, there would be several possibilities (by sea around south africa, or by conquering lands in egypt or palestine).
Basra could be another possibility, but I think there should be an unbroken path of owned provinces from the Indian Ocean's port to Mediterranean, and there are just too many possibilities of path for Basra.

 

[Garbon]

Historical plausibility
- what if it's not Portugal discovering Zanzibar but Venice, or the Dutch republic, or England ? Wouldn't they be able to wrestle the control-ownership of those places, instead of Portugal ? It becomes impossible to plan secedeprovince commands in such circumstances, and there are not enough tags to use for such limited purpose (releasing a one-province country whose only purpose is to be annexed).
- who owns the province at the time of the arrival of the europeans ? Would the Ottomans lose Zanzibar or Goa to the Portuguese ? Or the Moghols ? China, anyone ?

You're actually wrong. You can have province only events and set flags for particular countries so that only certain nations would cede provinces away.