Support question - How would you rank the types in usefulness?

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andysonofbob

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I realise this is a super tricky question to answer but are there any support unit types you always try to include e.g. I hear engineer is super important? What about Signal company?

iirc you have 5 slots, how do you fill them? Are there any interesting build ideas to look at?

Thanks
 

kviiri

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I tend to use engineers and recon, and if I have enough industry to cover for it, field hospital for all my divisions. These types are pretty much always beneficial to all divisions expected to see direct combat.

I tend to use signals companies for faster special units like motorized and armor only, because signal companies are relatively expensive and these types of divisions are usually more convenient for use in situations requiring urgent reinforcement anyway.
 

ValianBlue

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My go-to support companies are engineer and recon at the very least. The boost to speed, defense, and attack is helpful in every situation.

For basic infantry divisions, I add in support artillery and field hospitals. The pure soft attack boost and xp retention molds them into highly effective and deadly fighters.

For highly mobile divisions like cavalry or motorized, I attach logistics and recon. I can move more into the same area or into areas that would normally have unsuitable supplies and the speed boost is great for flanking around the enemy or rushing to their VP's.

Signal I attach to tanks for the boost to initiative - although I rarely use it as my generals have the advantage most of the time where I have the industry to support signal companies.

Military Police I group alone with four companies of cavalry to act as suppression units.
 

Achab

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Engineers - good for all.
Recon - for the extra speed and better battle tactic.
Signal - when you like to plan a lot, great with the Great Battleplan.
Logistic - when you plan to fight in low supply regions with high numbers.
Maintenance - with tank divisions when you cant produce the top class tanks in abundance.
Hospital - if you are really desperate with your manpower.
 

andysonofbob

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Many thanks for the advice!

I was confused by adding field hospital to every division. Even those composed of tanks? Shouldn't the mobile divisions have maintenance (?)

Thanks!
 

elektrizikekswerk

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Many thanks for the advice!

I was confused by adding field hospital to every division. Even those composed of tanks? Shouldn't the mobile divisions have maintenance (?)

Thanks!
Field hospital saves manpower and maintenance saves equipment. So both may be important in all kinds of divisions. I - and afaik most others - tend to use hospital in infantry divisions and maintenance in everything else. But both depend on your manpower base and industrial base.
If you have lots of able men to fight for you there's no need for the hospital unless you want to save the division experience, which might be an important point to consider. You don't want all your frontline divisions to drop back to green...
If you're producing more tanks than you'll ever need you may consider dumping maintenance.
 

kviiri

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I was confused by adding field hospital to every division. Even those composed of tanks? Shouldn't the mobile divisions have maintenance (?)

Field hospitals are good for all divisions - not necessarily equally good, but there's certainly value in adding them to tank divisions. They save MP (effectively returning a portion of lost MP to you) but also save unit experience - less soldiers dying means less green replacements, allowing you to level troops to higher levels with more ease. The latter effect is probably the more important bit for low-MP high-impact divisions like tanks.
 

bitmode

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This might be an unpopular opinion but I use support companies very sparingly because they require a bunch of research and army XP, decrease ORG and most ratios relating to HP (e.g. HP per manpower, HP per production cost etc.). This makes them more vulnerable to bombardment and defended attacks.
Support companies that work on percentages (field hospital, maintenance, engineers to some extent) are much less viable on small division templates.
Before the recent nerf to maintenance companies I used them on any 20+ width division, even pure infantry, operating in high-attrition terrain.

I never have any support company that I'd put on divisions by default. I only stack up on supports for spearhead divisions where I care less about cost rather than effect per combat width.
 

rcbricker33

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Many thanks for the advice!

I was confused by adding field hospital to every division. Even those composed of tanks? Shouldn't the mobile divisions have maintenance (?)

Thanks!

All divisions benefit from Maintenance and they all Benefit from Field Hos. I tend to use MAIN more than FH because MAIN doesn't need trucks. Also, the reduction to equipment helps so much it cant be ignored. FH is good and I would use it more just to save the XP dump from losses, but with only 5 support slots decisions have to be made. The fact that Adding SIG LOG or FH to a template means adding MOT to production (or increase MOT production) can sometimes be too much depending on the country I am playing. It is the same as adding ART as support to templates with line ART. More ART is more SA but the increased need for ART production limits the amount of times that I would do this.
 

Meglok

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Engineers are acknowledged as good in all templates. Speed bonus, entrenchment bonus, combat bonuses, ENG are required for all Frontline and coastal divisions.

Everything else is situational depending on template, use, , industrial capacity, and circumstances.

Since maintenance was nerfed it is no longer an auto add, but is useful in mobile divisions if MIC isn't abundant. To get good savings you need more than 1 level now.

Recon adds a great speed bonus to mobile Divisions, a small one to leg divisions, and an initiative bonus to all. There has been some debate as to whether the tactics subsystem is working optimally, so the benefit of initiative might not be that great.

Hospitals as others noted help if manpower is an issue. If you are China or Russia, maybe not an issue. The xp trickle back is not so great by itself.

Signal companies improve initiative and battle planning speed, but more importantly increase reinforcement chance. If you are creating hordes of divisions then this is very important. Mass Assault, Russia, China, and signals companies go well together. Not important if you are building smaller numbers of 40 width hi tech divisions.

Logistics is very important in Africa, Asia and Russia where infrastructure is low or can be trashed by combat. Not so important in high infrastructure areas or for divisions not fighting all the time. Log companies and Field Marshalls with logistics can prevent a lot of supply attrition loss.

Anti-aircraft can cause a lot of damage to enemy bombers and help you get air superiority if your opponent is bombing you. Not so helpful if the opponents aren't flying.

Anti-tank adds a lot of piercing for less cost than an AT regiment, and AT is cheaper than building armored vehicles. Enough to pierce LARM but unlikely to scratch a full strength MARM or HARM division. However, how many armored divisions are full strength after a month or two of heavy combat in Russia? Good if you are running 20 width and can't slot in a full regiment.

Arty and Rocket Arty add significant SA for no width and less cost than a full regiment. If you can afford the MIC the only question is can you afford the slot.

Military police are useful ONLY for suppression, but are very good for that. The increase in suppression saves 2 regiments of troops at Level I. Set your security forces to use only basic weapons and with MPs the cost is fairly reasonable.
 

P3D

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There four main cases.

1a. Superbly Abused Firepower 6-Wide

The aim here is to maximize SA/width from support companies on a Marine-only division for river crossing purposes. You add Art, and then whatever of RArt, AT, AA, and MP you have researched and can afford for 120-240 total combat width.

2a. Coastal garrisons and "tie-down-the-Panzers-while-my-CAS-and-Armor-is-doing-the-job" division.

6-10-(20+) wide MTN/INF. A couple optional company out of Art/AA/AT, but anything more is just taking up MIC from more important things. Preferably with low XP cost, e.g. the starting GER infantry template.

3a. Superior Firepower 10-23-wide.
Your SA comes partly from support brigades. Eng, Art by default. RArt optional (mostly if you have Superior Firepower or getting RArt through lend-lease).
AT is situationally important - i.e. you are facing light tanks or "hardened" infantry.

3b. 20-23-wide other doctrine
Everyone's own flavor of Eng+7INF+2Art division.ENG is needed to dig in, LOG/SIG/AA/AT depending on situation/resources. As you get less out of Art/RArt they can be skipped.

4. 40-45 wide "Space Marines"
As your SA is not coming from support brigades, you add strategic force multipliers in ENG, Rec, Hos, Sig.

5. 40-wide "competitive" armor (multiplayer)
"Competitive" means that you are shaving off unnecessary ballast to keep the Armor of the divisions above the Piercing of the opposing divisions, even when short of equipment. You probably end up with a template with 4-5 support companies, and remove as many of them as necessary to get the last few points of Armor.
1. Eng (if you have 1942 tech) 2. LOG 3-5. Hos, Maint, REC
 

Dalwin

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For me it varies greatly depending on nation played. Some of my preferences have also changed with v1.3.3 due to how resource shortages are handled. As usual, my preferences are tilted mostly toward slow MP play. This does not mean that they are not applicable to other formats, but in some cases they are more thorough than necessary.

For the big 2, Germany and USSR, I find logistics to be the most valuable of all support companies. When crunch time happens in the Smolensk gap and along the key river line, damage to infrastructure will put supply at a premium for both sides. This may be the difference between winning the key battles versus losing the war. At the very least, these will cut down on the portion of attrition that is caused by bad supply during this key period.

As above maintenance can be key, but for cost effectiveness I typically only add it to units which include armored vehicles.

To summarize the above two. Both logistics and maintenance will reduce equipment loss over time, but only logistics will directly impact combat in a significant way. This is noticeable only in extremely poor supply situations. These do occur and tend to be at critical times and places.

Regular support artillery and engineer are important for everyone and should always be included in front line combat units. AT and AA can be, but I would call neither of them an automatic to include.

I personally do not put much stock in recon or signal. Signal especially is a bad choice for the Soviets since they have an NF which gives 30% to reinforce chance. This actually makes even radio a low priority research for them. Signal is good for some nations, including Germany since it will help versus the Soviets.

I think field hospitals are over valued by many players. Saving some manpower and getting better experience both sound good, but manpower is so generous in this game for most majors that I am not sure this unit is worth the cost of producing it. Unit experience is also not easily gained even with hospitals. If you do use these be sure to get them to type III in a timely fashion to maximize their effect.
 
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Beethoven

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I am speaking mostly about multiplayer here ---


iirc you have 5 slots, how do you fill them?

The most important point that nobody has directly mentioned (I don't think) is that just because you have 5 support slots does not mean you should fill them. In fact, support companies can be quite expensive in terms of both production and research, and often it is simply not worth that production and research. Support companies also lower your ORG, piercing (except for support AT), and armor.

Instead of researching support companies, you can research things like industry tech, tanks, and planes further in advance. This will often help you much more than adding some support company to your divisions. Similarly, rather than having units with lots of support companies, you can often do better having *MORE* divisions without support companies, or else having the same number of divisions, but more tanks and planes instead.

The only support company that is usually a no-brainer is engineers, because it helps a lot on defense, gives some nice terrain bonuses, makes your units faster, and is pretty cheap.

But beyond that, there is no support company that is a general no-brainer.

artillery & rocket artillery - artillery and rocket artillery are pretty questionable now, at least in Vanilla 1.3.3 with artillery excessively nerfed to the point that it is not necessarily worth having. The exception is if you have Superior Firepower integrated support doctrine, in which case you will probably want artillery despite the nerfs. But otherwise, you may not even want to waste research on under-powered artillery at all.

support AT - does not help against proper tanks against good humans in multiplayer (contrary to @Meglok 's suggestion, proper tank divisions from a good human player do not run low strength enough to be pierced by support AT - at minimum you need some good line AT to have a realistic chance at that). But support AT does counter space marines, and that is often a good reason to have it. However, you may be able to get enough piercing to counter most space marines by adding an MSPAA, which is basically just as cheap, but also adds armor and shoots down lots of CAS. So sometimes and for some countries I will bother to research and produce AT, but in other situations it is just not worth it.

MP & recon - useful only if you need to add extra defense to your units, e.g. if you are defending with lower width units against a higher width opponent, and particularly with superior firepower integrated support. We still don't even know that the recon function of recon isn't bugged. MPs are not useful for partisan suppression (generally not cost efficient), only really for adding extra defense.

signal - this can be worth it, but only if you have a specific and focused strategy for it. For example, it can be worth it if you are not Soviets and want to have infantry that reinforces similar (but a bit worse) to Soviet NKVD, or possibly offensively if you are stacking some sort of planning bonuses (planning cap or planning speed).

logistics - it is a stretch for this to ever be worth it, especially after the 1.3.3 production changes generally seem to mean less production and fewer units clogging up the front. I might use it occasionally if you didn't have to waste so much research on it.

field hospital - doesn't actually really save much manpower, since it costs another 500 manpower to add the support company - that extra 500 manpower per division offsets a considerable amount of any manpower saved. Even for a country with no manpower like Australia, I would not generally use field hospitals. You are better off just building planes once you run too low on manpower. The only thing field hospitals are maybe useful for is retaining a bit of veterancy on expensive tank divisions.
 

Dalwin

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@Beethoven

Even though we disagree on one or two specific companies, I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion that one should not always fill all 5 slots. Here is the shorthand version of what I typically do for some nations.

With Russia, my infantry will typically have only 3 or 4 filled and only tank units are likely to ever see all 5. I am more likely to fill all 5 with German units sent to the Eastern Front, but one should have a separate template for the Atlantic Wall and other garrison situations that has between 0-2 support companies.

As Japan it is common for even my best line units to have only 2-3 support slots filled. I used to like logistics for Japan but since 1.3.3 I no longer do. The aluminum is just too precious for them so I find it necessary to minimize support equipment production in favor of getting a few more planes built. I deal with their supply problems on the Asian mainland via port upgrades and infrastructure instead of using logistics companies.
 

wabatt

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1. Engineer - Include in every fighting division. The extra entrenchment and attack is great.
2. Recon - Potential for flat percentage combat boost, not very expensive

These are the only auto includes. It's unnecessary to fill all 5 slots. Having more support units lowers organization and hardness, It also makes the divisions more expensive.

3. Signal Companies - The reinforce rate is necessary for holding France in MP
4. Support Artillery - For when you need to get maximum attack into combat width. Paratroopers, Marines, Breakthrough Divisions.
5. Maintenance - For expensive units fighting in desert and jungle.
 

Galithor

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I think looking a field hospitals exp bonus as a way to increase the gain of experience is only half the value. It's probably more valuable as a tool for maintaining your experience at regular status.

A division that falls from regular to trained loses 25% bonus.

Field hospitals make the experience attrition from heavier fighting more manageable.