Support Companies: which, where and when?

[Ivan_W_S]

But what that meens in battle???

More losses where and whats the diference.

I think that each column is a line, so we have 5 offensive/defensive lines. A artillery support don't get in battle, but the battalion artillery get in battle???

In battle, no difference, both should get into battle. The 5 columns and 5 rows in division designer means nothing, it's just showing which battalions your division is made up of. So, it doesn't matter if you arrange for your artillery battalion to be in a line vertically or horizontally, both will still enter combat. Combat works similar to HoI3, using combat width system. All infantry battalions (normal, motorized, mechanized) and armoured battalions have combat width, but artillery battalions and and all support companies have no combat width.

 

[griffor]

well less organization just means that the unit fights for less time nothing else sense you cycle troops in battles, or should to really win in games like Victoria and EU4 i would rather have the full tabs i think on my units.

1. recon always
2. field hospitals to lower causality rates and keep veterancy of my units
3. anti-tank pretty much a must have for infantry divisions and tank as i doubt ill have enough tanks to fill entire borders, and anti tank should be decent at holding enemy tanks at bay so my tanks take less damage.
4. engineers for everything seems needed as it removes river penalties, which i never seem to notice as i almost always play on political map
5. either maintenance companies, or arty depending on if it is tank or infantry divisions.

i think those will be my 5 i use at least atm with the information i have

 

[dav77-b]

well less organization just means that the unit fights for less time nothing else sense you cycle troops in battles, or should to really win in games like Victoria and EU4 i would rather have the full tabs i think on my units.

1. recon always
2. field hospitals to lower causality rates and keep veterancy of my units
3. anti-tank pretty much a must have for infantry divisions and tank as i doubt ill have enough tanks to fill entire borders, and anti tank should be decent at holding enemy tanks at bay so my tanks take less damage.
4. engineers for everything seems needed as it removes river penalties, which i never seem to notice as i almost always play on political map
5. either maintenance companies, or arty depending on if it is tank or infantry divisions.

i think those will be my 5 i use at least atm with the information i have

political map and terrain map are merging if you zoom in. SO you will see terrain and rivers better when you make orders.

 

[Kazansky22]

Anti-Tank:
Why: Sooner or later your divisions, of any kind, will face armoured opposition. Infantry should have som AT capabilities of its own, but will that be enough?
Who: Probably everybody with the exception of the US who should be able to field AT motorized battalions. Mountaneers probably don't need this as they're not very likely to see too many vehicles.
When: Possibly from the very start.

Why should the US not be able to field Motorized AT? Do you think that US Infantry just dragged those AT guns all around Africa, Italy and Europe with their Legs?

Why: They're useful both attacking (crossing rivers) and defending (entrenching). Some theatres probably don't need them (Africa, Pacific), some others definitely do (Benelux, Russia). If you're defending in western Europe you're probably better off with fixed bunkers and mobile forces to fill the gaps. Tough choice.
Who: Any division that is likely to be used in a stationary role and, occasionally, the motorized division that needs to cross a well defended river.
When: Hard to say and depending on other grand strategy factors.

I would also Argue that engineers should give a good bonus to attacking entrenched positions & fixed defenses, as well as movement over harsh terrain such as mountains

Why: The field hospital of pistons and carburetors. If you need to preserve your tank force, you will need an army of echanics in its trail.
Who: All the coutries whose tank production is not stellar, meaning anyone who is fighting the US.
When: If you can afford it, from the very beginning, otherwise only later on when you start producing tanks that are potentially going to be useful until the end of the war.

I would argue that a maintenance company is just as vital if not more vital to a US armored division for the fact that replacement vehicles and equipment have to be built somewhere in the United States, possibly near the coast, but also as likely if not more likely in the interior. Then they have to cross the Atlantic ocean, and then land and be distributed.

 

[Denkt]

Everyone can research all techs, nobody can research all techs in a single game.

 

[griffor]

Everyone can research all techs, nobody can research all techs in a single game.

i do think that by about a month in everyone will have a set way to national focus, know which techs to get etc at least for the country they have chosen as their favorite, i honestly can't wait for the multiplayer we are going to have 7 people all play the major's.

it probably won't be competitive but it will be interesting to hear people say oh crap why didn't i get that upgraded tank, or omg your infantry is so fast in those trucks

 

[Victor Cortez]

Why should the US not be able to field Motorized AT? Do you think that US Infantry just dragged those AT guns all around Africa, Italy and Europe with their Legs?

? I suppose you misunderstood what I wrote.

 

[bkuepers]

I'd imagine a maintenance company might always be a good choice if the cost of creating the support equipment for the company itself is less than the replacement equipment it saved. If you had the room in your template you might always want to build it. Once we get playing some companies will likely be no brainers and require some balancing.

I love the new setup.

 

[Victor Cortez]

I'd imagine a maintenance company might always be a good choice if the cost of creating the support equipment for the company itself is less than the replacement equipment it saved. If you had the room in your template you might always want to build it. Once we get playing some companies will likely be no brainers and require some balancing.

I love the new setup.

They decrease org though

 

[Victor Cortez]

Well the support brigades do offer useful abilities in limited fields, the question becomes are these abilities worth the cost? Can you invest these resources in a better way then the support brigades.

Like the field hospital reduce casulties but there are many ways to reduce casulties, like one could build divisions that are built around artillery instead of infantry or use tanks. Winning war quickly is probably the best way to reduce casulties so that ability should be prioritised above hospitals.

What I wanted to say is that everything have a cost and what give you the most for the cost should be prioritised above the rest. A division with 5 support brigades may look impressive but do the 5 support brigades help you enough to be worth their cost.

So this:

Is not necessarily correct.

Very sensible points, to which I have no serious arguments but:
1) With the exception of a few (mostly Western/Commonwealth), most minors are probably going to struggle a lot in production. Think of a country like Portugal. It produce that much and it won't have that big of a manpower pool. Even for Canada/Australia though, which should have less prroduction problems (for multiple reasons), a completely mechanized or armoured army is not practical. Building divs around artillery might mean less AA and less AT.
2) 'You decide when the war starts, not when it ends.'

Lke I said, your points are valid, but I still think minors need hospital.

 

[fdl]

In battle, no difference, both should get into battle. The 5 columns and 5 rows in division designer means nothing, it's just showing which battalions your division is made up of. So, it doesn't matter if you arrange for your artillery battalion to be in a line vertically or horizontally, both will still enter combat. Combat works similar to HoI3, using combat width system. All infantry battalions (normal, motorized, mechanized) and armoured battalions have combat width, but artillery battalions and and all support companies have no combat width.

so could I put a hospital in the battalions line ???

if is equal why the distinction ???

 

[griffor]

They decrease org though

why do you find the decreased org such a bad thing though?

 

[CrasherZZ]

Why is there an arbritrary limit of 5 support companies? A 1944 US Infantry division or SS Division might have all 11 support companies. There could be a technology level that allows more (or fewer) support companies. The org penalty would prevent players from adding a ridiculous number of support companies.

 

[GsusNSV]

Why is there an arbritrary limit of 5 support companies? A 1944 US Infantry division or SS Division might have all 11 support companies. There could be a technology level that allows more (or fewer) support companies. The org penalty would prevent players from adding a ridiculous number of support companies.

As I understand it, technically a division has all support companys by default. And because they have automatically all the support companys, there is no reason to show them in the template.
The 5 companys you can add, are something like a specialisation. No division in HoI 4 will be without a medical staff. But by adding a hospital unit, you give these division something like, more medics, actually some surgeons with the stufff needed to do an surgery. Dedicated transports to get injured soliders from the frontline to the hospital behind, so no need to 'borrow' trucks from the fighting battalions.
Engineer companys may get armoured vehicle-launched bridges and Flame tanks.
Maintenance will add Armoured recovery vehicle. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_recovery_vehicle)

Things like this may be meant with adding a support company to a template.

 

[Victor Cortez]

so could I put a hospital in the battalions line ???

if is equal why the distinction ???

Nope, hositals are support companies only.
Support companies are a way to specialize a division, sometimes with non-combat personnel.
Combat support divisions have less of an impact then regular battalions.
If I remember correctly, an artillery company uses half as many guns as an artillery battalion (or even less, can‘t remember sorry), but does not affect the division mobility, so an artillery company is something you want to have as a plus, not as a defining component of your divisions.

why do you find the decreased org such a bad thing though?

Less org = more shouting necessary = more sore throats = more hospitals necessary = less org...
Seriously, organization should be pretty important, right?

Also, I agree with @G-sus here.
Every real-life company probably has one ‘doctor‘, every tank division has technicians and mechanics, but in-game support companies are a way to specialize a division.

 

[griffor]

Less org = more shouting necessary = more sore throats = more hospitals necessary = less org...
Seriously, organization should be pretty important, right?

Also, I agree with @G-sus here.
Every real-life company probably has one ‘doctor‘, every tank division has technicians and mechanics, but in-game support companies are a way to specialize a division.

it would be different than hoi 3 than as org in that game was just how long a unit fought for, so if i had to choose between a unit with 5 support companies that didnt fight as long but took less casualties, and equipment loses, while inflicting more damage because of arty and anti tank, i think it a trade off i could make.

 

[jamesd]

Nope, hositals are support companies only.
Support companies are a way to specialize a division, sometimes with non-combat personnel.
Combat support divisions have less of an impact then regular battalions.
If I remember correctly, an artillery company uses half as many guns as an artillery battalion (or even less, can‘t remember sorry), but does not affect the division mobility, so an artillery company is something you want to have as a plus, not as a defining component of your divisions.

From the more recent info, artillery support companies are 24 guns, originally 8. Last time I saw an artillery battalion it was 12 guns.

 

[Beagá]

I don´t think artillery should be seen as "why" and more as "why not more guns"

If you want to and CAN build divisions with big artillery arm they should be effective. The ultimate question is how costly to build, mantain and how research is done.

 

[fdl]

Nope, hositals are support companies only.
Support companies are a way to specialize a division, sometimes with non-combat personnel.
Combat support divisions have less of an impact then regular battalions.
If I remember correctly, an artillery company uses half as many guns as an artillery battalion (or even less, can‘t remember sorry), but does not affect the division mobility, so an artillery company is something you want to have as a plus, not as a defining component of your divisions.



Less org = more shouting necessary = more sore throats = more hospitals necessary = less org...
Seriously, organization should be pretty important, right?

Also, I agree with @G-sus here.
Every real-life company probably has one ‘doctor‘, every tank division has technicians and mechanics, but in-game support companies are a way to specialize a division.

So we can put AA in division battalians???

 

[Victor Cortez]

Double.