Support Companies: which, where and when?

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Victor Cortez

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As we know from the Support Companies DD (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...development-diary-28th-of-august-2015.879058/) and the WWW videos (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/world-war-wednesday.893681/), Support Companies will play an interesting role in the game, but how exactly do you think they should be used? Which are the most useful? And when?

Anti-Air:
Why: Air battles will be integrated with land battles in HOI4 and it seems air superiority will play a pretty big role. In theory this should be useful for any division, especially infantry divs as armoured divs should probably use motorized AA battalions if they can be afforded.
Who: I can't help thinking that this seems the poor man's substitute to a powerful airforce. So, countries like Italy or minors could find anti-air companies pretty handy.
When: Possibly from the very start.

Anti-Tank:
Why: Sooner or later your divisions, of any kind, will face armoured opposition. Infantry should have som AT capabilities of its own, but will that be enough?
Who: Probably everybody with the exception of the US who should be able to field AT motorized battalions. Mountaneers probably don't need this as they're not very likely to see too many vehicles.
When: Possibly from the very start.

Artillery:
Why: Artillery has won the First World War and it's probably going to be very useful in the second as well. However, full infantry divisions should probably use Artillery battalions instead of Companies.
Who: All the countries that want to give their armoured divisions an extra punch but can't afford self-propelled guns.
When: If you're defending this is probably not as urgent as it is for the country that wants to blitzkrieg Europe.

Rockets:
Essentially artillery but more offensive-minded.

Recon:
Why: To make good use of the rest of your division. Probably more useful if you have a Rommel commanding your troops in order to make the most of his skills.
Who: Anyone who want to specialize their army or part of it.
When: For an attacking country this is probably rather urgent.

Engineers:
Why: They're useful both attacking (crossing rivers) and defending (entrenching). Some theatres probably don't need them (Africa, Pacific), some others definitely do (Benelux, Russia). If you're defending in western Europe you're probably better off with fixed bunkers and mobile forces to fill the gaps. Tough choice.
Who: Any division that is likely to be used in a stationary role and, occasionally, the motorized division that needs to cross a well defended river.
When: Hard to say and depending on other grand strategy factors.

Field Hospital:
Why: Because nobody likes to see their comrades die in the mud, especially if those comrades are veterans that could be useful elsewhere. If you want to preserve you manpower pool, and its all important experience, hospitals are good.
Who: Countries like the USSR, China and maybe the US can forget about this company unless they want to mantain the experience level of some specific divisions. Other countries, such as Commonwealth, should probably add a Field Hospital Company to each of their infantry divisions.
When: Small-population countries should do this before anything else, bigger countries can take their time.

Logistic Company:
Why: Some areas with poor infra can cause your on-paper formidable division to stop for the lack of foodstuffs and fuel. A logistic company rationalize the supply flux making it more efficient. Every division needs supply, but not all areas are troublesome.
Who: Whoever is involved in Africa, Asia or some parts of Russia. If you're invading Northern France this should not be necessary.
When: Whenever the numbers involved in a problematic theater start getting bigger. Italy and the UK should have this from the very beginning. Germany can wait its Polish and other European offensives to be done, but needs to make sure most of its divisions have logistic support (especially motorized and armoured in the Caucausus area).

Military Police:
Why: Those pesky marquis aren't going to arrest themselves.
Who: The axis and communist powers.
When: As soon as the ‘fighting army' is called back to fight on another front, or carries on in its victorious march, you shoud leave behind a few cavalry divisions with MP companies.

Maintenance Company:
Why: The field hospital of pistons and carburetors. If you need to preserve your tank force, you will need an army of echanics in its trail.
Who: All the coutries whose tank production is not stellar, meaning anyone who is fighting the US.
When: If you can afford it, from the very beginning, otherwise only later on when you start producing tanks that are potentially going to be useful until the end of the war.

Signal Company:
Why: By the looks of it, a signal company improves battleplan coordination, so it's an offensive-only company.
Who: Especially useful for conutries that make full use of battleplans, like Italy or Britain.
When: As soon as possible.

Opinions?
 
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Drake76

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I am inspired by your summaries. Well done.
 
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CocoCincinnati

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If you can have an entire seperate Artillery Brigade/Battery then I will always have that, if you can't, then you have to have an artillery company as one of your five choices. As for the rest, I will have to play the game before knowing for sure but my gut says to always include a Recon and Engineer element in every division. In addition, Infantry will get an AT company and Armor will get a maintenaince company. That will leave 1 or 2 spots (depending on the artillery question) to fill out the unit......at least until a mod comes along that lets me have all of them.
 
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Vidkjaer

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Anti-Tank:
Who: Probably everybody with the exception of the US who should be able to field AT motorized battalions. Mountaneers probably don't need this as they're not very likely to see too many vehicles.

How many AT guns an infantry division will field is properbly also dependent on how many resources the country has. I believe it is tungsten that is required for AT? Germany does not have this resource and must trade for it, giving up CF's.

Recon:
Why: To make good use of the rest of your division. Probably more useful if you have a Rommel commanding your troops in order to make the most of his skills.

Recon increases your chance of picking the rigth combat tactic in battle.
 

Victor Cortez

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How many AT guns an infantry division will field is properbly also dependent on how many resources the country has. I believe it is tungsten that is required for AT? Germany does not have this resource and must trade for it, giving up CF's.

Obviously the resource factor is extremely important. You can't build something that you desperately need if you don't have the resources for that.

Recon increases your chance of picking the rigth combat tactic in battle.

Yeah, that's why, I think, it's useful if you have a good Commander (so that you make good use of him).
 
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griffor

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How many AT guns an infantry division will field is properbly also dependent on how many resources the country has. I believe it is tungsten that is required for AT? Germany does not have this resource and must trade for it, giving up CF's.



Recon increases your chance of picking the rigth combat tactic in battle.

probably best to trade with allies like spain who you want in your axis as germany as you can boost up spain and get the equipment you need
 

Axe99

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Nice write-up Victor, love your work :). Since hearing about the supply model, I wonder if the logistics company means your unit uses less of the supply cap. If this was the case, using logistics companies would mean you could have greater force in a supply area relative to your enemy, giving you a handy advantage. Even if the logistics company just reduces the impact of attrition (rather than reducing the supply cap), it could be a very handy tool for nations with low oil supplies (as fewer replacements means a nation might find it more feasible to run a 'no oil' production line to keep its armoured divs running).

Personally, I reckon I'll sprinkle field hospitals around liberally, gotta look after the grunts :).
 

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Signal Companies also increase the chance of reinforcing a battle, which makes them quite important outside of battleplans; I'd certainly have them on the German Panzer Divisions.
 

jamesd

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As we know from the Support Companies DD (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...development-diary-28th-of-august-2015.879058/) and the WWW videos (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/world-war-wednesday.893681/), Support Companies will play an interesting role in the game, but how exactly do you think they should be used? Which are the most useful? And when?

Anti-Air:
Why: Air battles will be integrated with land battles in HOI4 and it seems air superiority will play a pretty big role. In theory this should be useful for any division, especially infantry divs as armoured divs should probably use motorized AA battalions if they can be afforded.
Who: I can't help thinking that this seems the poor man's substitute to a powerful airforce. So, countries like Italy or minors could find anti-air companies pretty handy.
When: Possibly from the very start.

Anti-Tank:
Why: Sooner or later your divisions, of any kind, will face armoured opposition. Infantry should have som AT capabilities of its own, but will that be enough?
Who: Probably everybody with the exception of the US who should be able to field AT motorized battalions. Mountaneers probably don't need this as they're not very likely to see too many vehicles.
When: Possibly from the very start.

Artillery:
Why: Artillery has won the First World War and it's probably going to be very useful in the second as well. However, full infantry divisions should probably use Artillery battalions instead of Companies.
Who: All the countries that want to give their armoured divisions an extra punch but can't afford self-propelled guns.
When: If you're defending this is probably not as urgent as it is for the country that wants to blitzkrieg Europe.

Rockets:
Essentially artillery but more offensive-minded.

Recon:
Why: To make good use of the rest of your division. Probably more useful if you have a Rommel commanding your troops in order to make the most of his skills.
Who: Anyone who want to specialize their army or part of it.
When: For an attacking country this is probably rather urgent.

Engineers:
Why: They're useful both attacking (crossing rivers) and defending (entrenching). Some theatres probably don't need them (Africa, Pacific), some others definitely do (Benelux, Russia). If you're defending in western Europe you're probably better off with fixed bunkers and mobile forces to fill the gaps. Tough choice.
Who: Any division that is likely to be used in a stationary role and, occasionally, the motorized division that needs to cross a well defended river.
When: Hard to say and depending on other grand strategy factors.

Field Hospital:
Why: Because nobody likes to see their comrades die in the mud, especially if those comrades are veterans that could be useful elsewhere. If you want to preserve you manpower pool, and its all important experience, hospitals are good.
Who: Countries like the USSR, China and maybe the US can forget about this company unless they want to mantain the experience level of some specific divisions. Other countries, such as Commonwealth, should probably add a Field Hospital Company to each of their infantry divisions.
When: Small-population countries should do this before anything else, bigger countries can take their time.

Logistic Company:
Why: Some areas with poor infra can cause your on-paper formidable division to stop for the lack of foodstuffs and fuel. A logistic company rationalize the supply flux making it more efficient. Every division needs supply, but not all areas are troublesome.
Who: Whoever is involved in Africa, Asia or some parts of Russia. If you're invading Northern France this should not be necessary.
When: Whenever the numbers involved in a problematic theater start getting bigger. Italy and the UK should have this from the very beginning. Germany can wait its Polish and other European offensives to be done, but needs to make sure most of its divisions have logistic support (especially motorized and armoured in the Caucausus area).

Military Police:
Why: Those pesky marquis aren't going to arrest themselves.
Who: The axis and communist powers.
When: As soon as the ‘fighting army' is called back to fight on another front, or carries on in its victorious march, you shoud leave behind a few cavalry divisions with MP companies.

Maintenance Company:
Why: The field hospital of pistons and carburetors. If you need to preserve your tank force, you will need an army of echanics in its trail.
Who: All the coutries whose tank production is not stellar, meaning anyone who is fighting the US.
When: If you can afford it, from the very beginning, otherwise only later on when you start producing tanks that are potentially going to be useful until the end of the war.

Signal Company:
Why: By the looks of it, a signal company improves battleplan coordination, so it's an offensive-only company.
Who: Especially useful for conutries that make full use of battleplans, like Italy or Britain.
When: As soon as possible.

Opinions?

For most majors I'd say the default should be:
Recon, Engineer, Signals, Hospital and either Logistics or Maintenance

For the US it would need to be maintenance instead of logistics - their supply consumption was staggeringly high compared to other nations so it just wouldn't feel right for them to be able to supply more divisions in the same area compared to other nations. I've just started reading a book on the Normandy campaign and the US was delivering 6.5 pounds of food per man per day to troops there, of which only 4 pounds was being consumed. In contrast the Germans were making do with 3.5 pounds.

Artillery, AT, AA etc can all be added as combat battalions, so they shouldn't be used to take up valuable specialty slots for normal divisions. Of course paratroopers would be the exception, where from what I've seen those divisions can jump with support artillery units but not with combat artillery battalions. They may need to drop Hospitals and Log/Maint in order to have Art & AT. While losing the extra men due to not having a hospital may not sound good for an elite parachute unit, when units performed combat jumps there were often very high losses.

For the Russians, their standard infantry divisions could have Engineers and that's it for support companies. Then they could have a Guards template that adds Signals and Hospitals and maybe Recon. They also showed an ability to concentrate large forces in small areas at various times in the war, so a Logistics company may also be good for all their templates, but it would feel very counter-intuitive. I'd say they definitely shouldn't have maintenance companies as they viewed equipment as expendable items to be replaced if they lasted long enough to be worn out.

We haven't had a DD on partisans/unrest etc, but its likely the only time a Police unit should be used will be as part of specialist occupation units.

For minor nations, its very much going to depend on production output unless they're getting additional equipment from their major power allies.
 
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Victor Cortez

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Won't you need the Military Police as Allies as well to quell disorder in liberated cities, separatists/partisans and such?

Well, in theory you shouldn't, or at least not so much.
We don't know yet for sure, but if the British land in France and advance, they shouldn't conquer but actually liberate (returning to the rightful owner), so there shouldn't be partisans revolts. Once they get in Italy or Germany, they might need it (obviously this is assuming a real-life like war for the sake of simplicity. If France goes fascist and is part of the axis, then yes, the Allies will need MP.

Nice write-up Victor, love your work :).

Thanks Axe :)

Since hearing about the supply model, I wonder if the logistics company means your unit uses less of the supply cap. If this was the case, using logistics companies would mean you could have greater force in a supply area relative to your enemy, giving you a handy advantage. Even if the logistics company just reduces the impact of attrition (rather than reducing the supply cap), it could be a very handy tool for nations with low oil supplies (as fewer replacements means a nation might find it more feasible to run a 'no oil' production line to keep its armoured divs running).

Yeah, I'm assuming that (example):
One area has a 10 supply cap, a standard inf division requires 1 supply each. A logistic company lowers that value to, say, 0.8 and this lets you field more divisions in that area (or, if you go above the cap, the malus is not so bad).

Personally, I reckon I'll sprinkle field hospitals around liberally, gotta look after the grunts :).

As a Commonwealth country sending your troops to Europe? Sure. As the SU desperately fighting Germany? I'd rather spend that resources in more firepower :D


Signal Companies also increase the chance of reinforcing a battle, which makes them quite important outside of battleplans; I'd certainly have them on the German Panzer Divisions.

True, I forgot that.
 
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Victor Cortez

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Artillery, AT, AA etc can all be added as combat battalions, so they shouldn't be used to take up valuable specialty slots for normal divisions.

My understand is that companies don't affect speed/mobility, while battalions do (like you said, basically).
So, I would never attach an artillery battalion to a motorized division, but if I need the extra power artillery company is a good choice (maybe).
 

Procyanide

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Signal Company:
Why: By the looks of it, a signal company improves battleplan coordination, so it's an offensive-only company.
Who: Especially useful for conutries that make full use of battleplans, like Italy or Britain.
When: As soon as possible.

I thought you could also draw up defensive battleplans, so in case your line is broken you can execute an orderly retreat to the next defensive line? This would make the signal company useful for both offense and defense, but im not sure it works that way.
 

jamesd

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My understand is that companies don't affect speed/mobility, while battalions do (like you said, basically).
So, I would never attach an artillery battalion to a motorized division, but if I need the extra power artillery company is a good choice (maybe).

Which is a fundamental problem with the choices available to players. German motorised divisions in 1939 included an artillery regiment of 48 guns as well as 24 infantry guns that were part of the infantry regiments. All those guns were towed and able to keep pace with the rest of the division. In game we will slow our divisions down if we give them a bunch of artillery battalions, unless we produce SP artillery on tank chassis, but as mentioned above all 72 of those guns were towed and not SP. Similarly British infantry divisions, which were semi motorised, contained fully motorised artillery regiments for a total of 72 towed artillery pieces. The artillery was actually more mobile than the infantry as the riflemen did not have their own dedicated transport, but if we add it in the divisions get slower.
 
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Which is a fundamental problem with the choices available to players. German motorised divisions in 1939 included an artillery regiment of 48 guns as well as 24 infantry guns that were part of the infantry regiments. All those guns were towed and able to keep pace with the rest of the division. In game we will slow our divisions down if we give them a bunch of artillery battalions, unless we produce SP artillery on tank chassis, but as mentioned above all 72 of those guns were towed and not SP. Similarly British infantry divisions, which were semi motorised, contained fully motorised artillery regiments for a total of 72 towed artillery pieces. The artillery was actually more mobile than the infantry as the riflemen did not have their own dedicated transport, but if we add it in the divisions get slower.

What if they added a (towed) motorized artillery battalions? It should require trucks and artillery pieces and would solve the problem you mention, right?
 
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jamesd

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What if they added a (towed) motorized artillery battalions? It should require trucks and artillery pieces and would solve the problem you mention, right?

Yes that would solve the problem. They should have both motorised and mechanised artillery (and AA & AT) battalions. Most German guns that were vehicle towed were actually pulled by half tracks, while most British artillery tractors were trucks (but the universal carriers did tow a lot of lighter guns towards the end of the war).
 
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dav77-b

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Which is a fundamental problem with the choices available to players. German motorised divisions in 1939 included an artillery regiment of 48 guns as well as 24 infantry guns that were part of the infantry regiments. All those guns were towed and able to keep pace with the rest of the division. In game we will slow our divisions down if we give them a bunch of artillery battalions, unless we produce SP artillery on tank chassis, but as mentioned above all 72 of those guns were towed and not SP. Similarly British infantry divisions, which were semi motorised, contained fully motorised artillery regiments for a total of 72 towed artillery pieces. The artillery was actually more mobile than the infantry as the riflemen did not have their own dedicated transport, but if we add it in the divisions get slower.

I thought adding ART to a fast division makes them truck towed automaticly? ( and increased the demand for trucks )
 

GsusNSV

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I thought adding ART to a fast division makes them truck towed automaticly? ( and increased the demand for trucks )
AFAIK that only works for support art. The normal combat battalions should slow you down.

Edit:
(LostinSpice said:
Until we have the Dev answer I suspect that support ART/ AA and AT are the only ones that don't give movement/ air drop penalties to specialist divisions like paratroopers or amphibious assault to marines. Normal ART for example would make the paratrooper division a ground unit only.)

Support battalions are assumed to use the same manner of transportation so yes.

 
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