Support companies for Japan's armies? Yes/no?

[Commander-DK]

I have run a few test games with Japan up until mid-38, trying to get a handle on naval invasions and other things.

At first, I was bleeding manpower against China. I altered the template from 12 inf to the standard 7 inf + 2 line artillery for 20 width, and added an engineer company for better defense. That seems to be working okay, although supply is an issue at some points along the front.

Yesterday, however, I read someone here on the forum say that "logistics companies are an absolute must" [for Japan's armies]. Do you find that to be true? I am weary of making more support companies - simply because aluminium is crazy expensive and I need every scrap for airplanes, not support equipment?

 

[Misaka_Complex]

Yesterday, however, I read someone here on the forum say that "logistics companies are an absolute must" [for Japan's armies]. Do you find that to be true?

No because logistics companies are for supply heavy templates such as medium and heavy tanks with mechanized units. Japan shouldn't be making those units at all since you are going to be short on steel and you should keep support equipment to a minimum with the only support divisions you have being engineers, artillery and rocket artillery (especially this because it costs less steel and more tungsten).

 

[Dalwin]

The steel shortages are not even the worst of it. Aluminum is. Support equipment uses both.

The only support companies I use for them are engineers and artillery.

Logistics companies were important for Japan prior to v1.3.3. Now aluminum is too precious for such things, IMO. Besides I have never struggled to take China either against the AI or against a human player. You really don't need the logistics.

 

[Commander-DK]

Thanks!

 

[Meglok]

Agree with @Dalwin
Until you have Chinese CIC to trade with Russia you need every scrap of aluminum in planes you can spare. Not uncommon to be running 6 or more aircraft lines pre-1938 with Japan. With the missing aluminum that should be in Asia (see sig) Japan is really hurting in 1.3.3 due to the new production rules.

Logistics is not really needed in China. Just do the infrastructure focus, improve the Manchuko port a little, and maybe bump the Chakar infrastructure. If you are using more than 70-80 divisions vs ai China you are using overkill.

My standard attack force vs ai China is with the beginning templates plus a 10 MAR, a 6 MTN, and a 9 INF/1 LARM template. The only thing that gets support Arty is the Marines. About 30 of the 12 inf, about a dozen of the MTN to start, the starting 12 Cav and 2 motor, about 12 MAR, 16 of the LARM reinforced, and I usually have around 20 of the 6 INF builds left over after converting a few. I might only have deployed a dozen or so new divisions due to the INF Eq deficit Japan starts with. All of the attacking divisions except the CAV and usually the 6 INF builds get ENG. Only so much xp to farm in Spain (which you need to finish before Marco Polo, you can use those buffed units) Beside that no other support.

Artillery costs steel and besides Manchuko Japan ain't got much until it kills China. Ships need steel and I need to be making ships from Day 1. Besides, I don't want a slugfest in China, I want a fast kill so I can get all those goodies (note-this is SP). LARM is dirt cheap and even 1 regiment of LARM I tankettes means ai China can't pierce. Can't pierce means less damage, less dead, and fast breakthroughs. Ai China struggles to put a rifle in each soldier's hand. It doesn't make artillery or AT.

From there it is just strategy and tactics, usually takes less than 6 months to kill China. When it is over you have plenty of time and xp to build up your forces for elsewhere.

Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[Commander-DK]

Agree with @Dalwin
LARM is dirt cheap and even 1 regiment of LARM I tankettes means ai China can't pierce. Can't pierce means less damage, less dead, and fast breakthroughs. Ai China struggles to put a rifle in each soldier's hand. It doesn't make artillery or AT.

Interesting. I have been afraid to use the LARM template for anything and even to bring the LARM and MOTINF to China mainland because of fears over the poor infrastructure + mountains. You don't find that an issue?

 

[Meglok]

Interesting. I have been afraid to use the LARM template for anything and even to bring the LARM and MOTINF to China mainland because of fears over the poor infrastructure + mountains. You don't find that an issue?

Not really. You aren't worried about speed because the LARM are basically a large support company to 9 INF regiments. It is all about taking advantage of piercing and ai China's lack of IC and tech. In an MP game you might have the Russian player funneling equipment to the Chinese player, but we are talking about SP. It costs less than 1000 tanks to equip and you start with almost half of them. Not a huge logistical drain or IC demand.

BTW, I always send my motor and Cav to follow my invasion either at Qingdao or Shanghai. They run as fast as they can to encircle the Chinese river line. No matter the terrain they are faster than Chinese infantry nerfed by air superiority. The river line either retreats or is encircled.

Later you can use them to create a 6 motor/3 LARM pursuit overrun division to be used in India and the Near East, or even Eastern Russia. Just keep them away from real armor or they will get chewed up.

Imo China is Japan's Poland, a speed bump that provides Japan with the tools to compete in the larger game. Not necessarily historical but in terms of game play and balance necessary.

Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[lazuka12]

Signal companies can be important if your using 40 width divisions and GBP doctorine for planning bonus.

 

[Meglok]

Signal companies can be important if your using 40 width divisions and GBP doctorine for planning bonus.

Why would you ever use 40 width vs ai China? I am just curious to your reasoning as these are notorious supply hogs and you are only usually facing 12 width Chinese templates?

 

[P3D]

Why would you ever use 40 width vs ai China? I am just curious to your reasoning as these are notorious supply hogs and you are only usually facing 12 width Chinese templates?

Because 40w have enough breakthrough to match the SA of the Chinese divisions even in suboptimal terrain/against a human CHI player. 20-wide can do that only with LARM.

 

[Meglok]

Because 40w have enough breakthrough to match the SA of the Chinese divisions even in suboptimal terrain/against a human CHI player. 20-wide can do that only with LARM.

Ok. But isn't it cheaper in production cost and time to equip the 20 width than 40? Before 1.3.3 I could probably equip 40s, but with the lack of trade due to the distance penalty in 1.3.3 Japan doesn't get much free IC to play with. Got to have oil and a few Aluminum thru trade, and you get about 36 steel from Manchuko. If I have to trade for more steel to make rifles for 40w divisions I am likely hurting for CIC or I am shutting down NIC lines which I don't like.

Or are you talking about just a few 40s? And I still don't like spending aluminum for signal companies. That means less planes and Japan can be pumping useful planes at start.

Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[dave1233]

Ok. But isn't it cheaper in production cost and time to equip the 20 width than 40? Before 1.3.3 I could probably equip 40s, but with the lack of trade due to the distance penalty in 1.3.3 Japan doesn't get much free IC to play with. Got to have oil and a few Aluminum thru trade, and you get about 36 steel from Manchuko. If I have to trade for more steel to make rifles for 40w divisions I am likely hurting for CIC or I am shutting down NIC lines which I don't like.

Or are you talking about just a few 40s? And I still don't like spending aluminum for signal companies. That means less planes and Japan can be pumping useful planes at start.

Add Aluminum in Asia

One 40w is cheaper than two 20 widths because you aren't paying twice for the support companies.

Also with regard to support equipment it is one of the only things you can produce at the start of the game which will still be effective at the end of it so to me if makes sense to stockpile significant amounts of it while you cannot build 1940 or 1944 planes and then when you can swap all the factories over to planes

 

[lazuka12]

You can start the war against China with divisions that have a width of about 20 but the end goal is still to make 40 width templates. 20 width divisons also take more losses while attacking which means you need to produce more equipment to replace your losses.

 

[Dalwin]

Interesting. I have been afraid to use the LARM template for anything and even to bring the LARM and MOTINF to China mainland because of fears over the poor infrastructure + mountains. You don't find that an issue?

I find that having just a few motorized divisions on the main front in China can be critical. To misuse a quote from something else, "speed kills." You will get overruns with motorized, sometimes large stacks dying from having had a single motorized division among your attackers.

When @Meglok talks about using LARM against China, I think he means it in the same sense that I use them. This is usually not in the form of LARM divisions of any sort. Instead it is to attach one LARM battalion to some form of specialty infantry division. The Chinese will not be able to pierce. That combined with the extra breakthrough should allow you to force the line to shift even against the stronger spots. Combine this with even one motorized division for pursuit and it is something with which even a human playing China will struggle.

 

[Misaka_Complex]

I find that having just a few motorized divisions on the main front in China can be critical.

Especially against the AI in SP where they always have 50+ divisions in Beijing and Tianjin. If you use your motorized to cut them off and encircle them that's more than half of the Chinese army gone at the start of the war.

 

[Dalwin]

Especially against the AI in SP where they always have 50+ divisions in Beijing and Tianjin. If you use your motorized to cut them off and encircle them that's more than half of the Chinese army gone at the start of the war.

Yes they are also good for encirclement, but I meant I find them especially important for direct overruns. The Chinese just cannot run away fast enough once their line breaks. Not only are they all using leg speed (in bad infrastructure), but Japan will also have air superiority to slow them further.

Since China cannot produce enough equipment to fill its units, that makes retreating ones especially vulnerable since there will be no large stockpile for quick replenishment.

 

[redrum68]

For early game Japan (first few years and war vs China), I only go for engineer support since you are so aluminum poor and don't really benefit that much from the other supports. You don't really have enough industry to afford trading much of it away.

In terms of division composition, it really depends how quickly you attack China. In SP, its best to attack them ASAP as its easy to beat them with just your starting units as their starting army is really weak and you want the extra industry ASAP since you'll have to carry Germany/Italy. Production wise I tend to focus mostly on artillery early since most of your starting divisions don't have any and go towards either 7inf/2art or 14inf/4art.

 

[Dalwin]

For early game Japan (first few years and war vs China), I only go for engineer support since you are so aluminum poor and don't really benefit that much from the other supports. You don't really have enough industry to afford trading much of it away.

In terms of division composition, it really depends how quickly you attack China. In SP, its best to attack them ASAP as its easy to beat them with just your starting units as their starting army is really weak and you want the extra industry ASAP since you'll have to carry Germany/Italy. Production wise I tend to focus mostly on artillery early since most of your starting divisions don't have any and go towards either 7inf/2art or 14inf/4art.

The timing is a bit more delicate in MP. Conquering China is a large source of WT and spiking it too early is very bad for the Axis in the long run. Especially considering that Japan is probably the weakest of the Axis majors.

 

[Meglok]

Yes they are also good for encirclement, but I meant I find them especially important for direct overruns. The Chinese just cannot run away fast enough once their line breaks. Not only are they all using leg speed (in bad infrastructure), but Japan will also have air superiority to slow them further.

Since China cannot produce enough equipment to fill its units, that makes retreating ones especially vulnerable since there will be no large stockpile for quick replenishment.

Yep, get air superiority everywhere (simple vs ai), use a 9 INF/1 LARM build to get the Chinese deep into deficits and crack the line with little to no losses, invade behind, speed rush CAV and Motor behind lines from beachhead, and use the MTN divisions to just pin the ChiComs at home. Ai is toast. ChiComs fall when Nationalists collapse. Get on with more important stuff.

Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[Dalwin]

I see you compromised on the "add aluminum" tag.

You only add it on threads where it is somewhat on topic instead of on ALL of your posts as you originally threatened to do, heh.