Support Companies and their worth

[Vlad123]

The answer to the question depends on: Single Player or Multi Player games, and which country are you playing as? The AI doesn't use space marines, so support AT in a SP is a waste. Multiplayer games may use it (if it isn't against the rules for that match) so AT becomes worthwhile. China has limitless manpower reserves, so hospitals are a waste of resources, but Italy isn't swimming in fighty dudes, so they benefit from having some. And so on. Here's my $0.02:

Engineers go in everything. EVERYTHING. Except garrison templates. That would be silly. The terrain and entrenchment bonuses are fantastic for both offense and defense, so always use them. Always.

Support ART goes in everything, with the exception of garrisons. The soft attack is too useful to pass up.

Hospitals are only for nations that have low manpower and/or rely on infantry/cavalry to do most of their fighting due to industrial deficencies. XP and manpower retention is a huge help.

Support AA is amazeballs. Goes in everything except garrisons. Yes, yes, you are supposed to build planes and command the skies. Good luck doing that as a minor when Germany decides they like how your country tastes. With support AA you can offset the enemy's air support bonus, shoot down his planes (forcing him to build new ones... this matters if your enemy's air force is bigger than yours but not well-supported factory-wise) and pierce his tanks. That last one is something most players overlook. Support AA gives enough piercing that you can counter light and medium tanks with ease. It's not as reliable against heavy tanks (depends on how far down your respective tech trees you and the other guy are) but it'll do for most of what you'll see in SP. It's like getting 2 support companies but only paying for one!

Supply companies are great, if you are going to be fighting in areas with poor infrastructure and bad supply routes, or if you are supporting an ally who doesn't prioritize infra projects in newly-conquered territory. They also cut down on fuel use in tank divisions, and saving gas wins wars.

Recon is... situational. The division speed boost is nice, but that is all you will get from it. The alleged initiative bonus never seems to materialize when people on the forums test it out, so I doubt it even exists. If going faster matters to you, go for it, but IMHO there are more important things to grab first.

Signal companies are also situational. Some people swear by them; some swear by them only in tank divisions. I never use them, but that's just me.

Support AT is meh. Single player has no need for it; use AA instead. Multi-player might have a use, if your opponents are sexually attracted to heavy and super-heavy tanks. Support AA isn't going to do much to a late game heavy. You'll need real AT to pierce that.

Maintenance is great for tanks, as it keeps them from suffering losses due to reliability issues. If your industry is barely able to keep tanks in the field (Italy!) then these are super worthwhile, as they keep your tanks in the field longer. You also can capture equipment with them. That isn't a big deal to Germany or the US, but to an industry-starved country that is going to be on the defensive, it can keep you fighting while your enemy bleeds himself out on you.

Rocket ARTY is great if you have the industry to support it. A support rocket company has twice as many rocket guns as an artillery company has cannons, so you'll need to commit twice the industry, but rocket guns get bonuses from both the artillery research tree and the rocket technology research tree. They have the potential to stack some big bonuses for bigger booms. Having both support ART and support rocket ART, while running Superior Firepower, can make infantry offensives surprisingly effective. These go on infantry/cav divisions. Tanks have no need for them, and they would reduce the division's armor rating anyway.

Military Police only go in garrison templates, but they are a must-have. They reduce the amount of manpower you waste holding territory and that is the most wonderful thing in the world.

I usually play minors, so I rarely have the IC to stack everything I want right from the start. I prioritize support ART and engineers first. Once I have those in everything, I'll add logistic groups. By this point I'm getting close to poking a major or a friend of a major, so I'll throw in AA. Hospitals are next if I need manpower. If I don't need hospitals, I wait till support rocket arty is available.

I hope you find all that helpful!

Small add: not only the rocket artillery bonus gain(their branch) and normal artillery, but the bonus of missile (and maybay the rocket engine)

 

[KubiG37]

I haven't seen a specific thing mentioned about why engineers are so great - they make crossing difficult terrain and especially rivers way faster, especially for tanks/motorized.

Try moving a division with any tank other than light across a river, it will take days. With engineers, it will move across almost as if the river was not there.

And heavy tanks without engineers? They get stuck on pretty much any terrain other than nice clean dry plains, so while it's nice that they're powerful, armored and so, they're useless when they're constantly lagging behind everything travelling at 1 kph.

 

[TalyonUngol]

The answer to the question depends on: Single Player or Multi Player games, and which country are you playing as? The AI doesn't use space marines, so support AT in a SP is a waste. Multiplayer games may use it (if it isn't against the rules for that match) so AT becomes worthwhile. China has limitless manpower reserves, so hospitals are a waste of resources, but Italy isn't swimming in fighty dudes, so they benefit from having some. And so on. Here's my $0.02:

Engineers go in everything. EVERYTHING. Except garrison templates. That would be silly. The terrain and entrenchment bonuses are fantastic for both offense and defense, so always use them. Always.

Support ART goes in everything, with the exception of garrisons. The soft attack is too useful to pass up.

Hospitals are only for nations that have low manpower and/or rely on infantry/cavalry to do most of their fighting due to industrial deficencies. XP and manpower retention is a huge help.

Support AA is amazeballs. Goes in everything except garrisons. Yes, yes, you are supposed to build planes and command the skies. Good luck doing that as a minor when Germany decides they like how your country tastes. With support AA you can offset the enemy's air support bonus, shoot down his planes (forcing him to build new ones... this matters if your enemy's air force is bigger than yours but not well-supported factory-wise) and pierce his tanks. That last one is something most players overlook. Support AA gives enough piercing that you can counter light and medium tanks with ease. It's not as reliable against heavy tanks (depends on how far down your respective tech trees you and the other guy are) but it'll do for most of what you'll see in SP. It's like getting 2 support companies but only paying for one!

Supply companies are great, if you are going to be fighting in areas with poor infrastructure and bad supply routes, or if you are supporting an ally who doesn't prioritize infra projects in newly-conquered territory. They also cut down on fuel use in tank divisions, and saving gas wins wars.

Recon is... situational. The division speed boost is nice, but that is all you will get from it. The alleged initiative bonus never seems to materialize when people on the forums test it out, so I doubt it even exists. If going faster matters to you, go for it, but IMHO there are more important things to grab first.

Signal companies are also situational. Some people swear by them; some swear by them only in tank divisions. I never use them, but that's just me.

Support AT is meh. Single player has no need for it; use AA instead. Multi-player might have a use, if your opponents are sexually attracted to heavy and super-heavy tanks. Support AA isn't going to do much to a late game heavy. You'll need real AT to pierce that.

Maintenance is great for tanks, as it keeps them from suffering losses due to reliability issues. If your industry is barely able to keep tanks in the field (Italy!) then these are super worthwhile, as they keep your tanks in the field longer. You also can capture equipment with them. That isn't a big deal to Germany or the US, but to an industry-starved country that is going to be on the defensive, it can keep you fighting while your enemy bleeds himself out on you.

Rocket ARTY is great if you have the industry to support it. A support rocket company has twice as many rocket guns as an artillery company has cannons, so you'll need to commit twice the industry, but rocket guns get bonuses from both the artillery research tree and the rocket technology research tree. They have the potential to stack some big bonuses for bigger booms. Having both support ART and support rocket ART, while running Superior Firepower, can make infantry offensives surprisingly effective. These go on infantry/cav divisions. Tanks have no need for them, and they would reduce the division's armor rating anyway.

Military Police only go in garrison templates, but they are a must-have. They reduce the amount of manpower you waste holding territory and that is the most wonderful thing in the world.

I usually play minors, so I rarely have the IC to stack everything I want right from the start. I prioritize support ART and engineers first. Once I have those in everything, I'll add logistic groups. By this point I'm getting close to poking a major or a friend of a major, so I'll throw in AA. Hospitals are next if I need manpower. If I don't need hospitals, I wait till support rocket arty is available.

I hope you find all that helpful!

Alright so for me, Support Arty, Logistics, Field Hospitals, engineers are are an absolute must. So this is now between Rocket artillery, Maintenance, and support AA. This is a hard choice for me because each has their benifits. So lets say for tanks, just mainteance but now its rocket artillery and support AA. Support AA will help vs the Air as well as piercing tanks, but it could also be beneficial for my 40W tanks to put in a SPAA right? So I could replace the support AA with maintenance and get the best of both worlds. Should work?

 

[Metz]

Support companies such as field hospital, maintenance, logistics, and signals companies should give bonuses to divisions stacked in the same tile so they can be used more often. Surely a division with a specialized company can share it with another division if the situation requires.

 

[DGuller]

I think the problem with field hospitals is that if you need their bonus, you're doing something wrong anyway. It seems like there is no middle ground with casualties; either you don't suffer that many, or you suffer so many that everything is going down in a spiral. In the first case it's not that useful, in the second case the last thing you need is more equipment deficit from having to equip your hospitals.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I think the problem with field hospitals is that if you need their bonus, you're doing something wrong anyway. It seems like there is no middle ground with casualties; either you don't suffer that many, or you suffer so many that everything is going down in a spiral. In the first case it's not that useful, in the second case the last thing you need is more equipment deficit from having to equip your hospitals.

Well, I also play a singleplayer historical game as Germany, where Im essientially solo against America, Britain, France, Soviets and all of the allies/comminterm. I don't trust Italy to handle his turf and Hungary/Bulgaria are essentially useless as team members due to never leaving their countries or being able to do any attacks. So the amount of manpower that I have to spend is more than enough to warrant a field marshal, just to min max my limited manpower.

 

[Harin]

Support companies such as field hospital, maintenance, logistics, and signals companies should give bonuses to divisions stacked in the same tile so they can be used more often. Surely a division with a specialized company can share it with another division if the situation requires.

I am not sure a division can share its resources with other divisions, so easily. Typically, especially during war, divisions rarely had an excess of anything that was important. Doctors? Never enough, so sharing just means longer lines. Logistics? Sharing means doing without, which in the aggregate nets back to zero gain. Signals? In reality, that represents embedded radio operators and their equipment throughout the division, providing up and down stream communications with the division commander. It is not something that can be shared.

Division assets were not designed to be shared. Instead they were assigned to other units, offering their "bonus" to the new unit, while the old unit loses the "bonus", resulting in no overall gain.

I would think that the only type of support units that can be shared between divisions would be something coming from a higher command staff, such as a Corps assets.

 

[Casko]

Alright so for me, Support Arty, Logistics, Field Hospitals, engineers are are an absolute must. So this is now between Rocket artillery, Maintenance, and support AA. This is a hard choice for me because each has their benifits. So lets say for tanks, just mainteance but now its rocket artillery and support AA. Support AA will help vs the Air as well as piercing tanks, but it could also be beneficial for my 40W tanks to put in a SPAA right? So I could replace the support AA with maintenance and get the best of both worlds. Should work?

My take on Artillery / Rocket Artillery take is, as an advocate of Rocket Artillery is, that regular artillery has bonus for the fact that its all "single tech line" and easier to rush down, and available from the start, thus far easier to stockpile and research without much thinking. However Rocket Artillery has better breakthrough, thus makes it easier to break through entrenched enemy if you're using infantry on offense, rather than Tanks.
Similarly while weaker at start when you get access to them, they're far stronger at end game, and the longer the game goes on, the better they get, and will eventually surpass regular artillery if you research all Rocket tech.

So if your game(s) goes past 1945, its far better to invest in Rocket Artillery and tech rush to Rocket Artillery2 rather than go with Arty3.

Similarly Germany has a rocket research boosting national focus you can access, which can make it easier to tech rush if you decide to join the meme that is rocket powered infantry.

 

[AFilthyCasual]

I would prefer to integrate AA and AT capabilities into line battalions so as to maximize their attack stats - however doing a 13/4/1/1 gimps your ORG.

For a totally foot infantry division, I prefer a 15/3/1 INF/ART/AT with ART, AA, ENG, MED and LOG support. This is barely different from a standard 14/4 depending on whether your 14/4 uses support arty - if it does, this has less SA but more HA, DEF, and slightly more ORG. If not, it's flat out superior.

If you spend the XP for armored support, either a tank destroyer or tank battalion, you can do a 14/3/1/1 INF/ART/AA/(TD/ARM) and replace the support AA with a recon battalion; also a good template for motorized and armored divisions (for armored, just use self-propelled AA and ART, 8-10 ARM and 5-7 MOT/MECH depending how much armor you like to stack).

 

[squid_hills]

Line AT never seemed useful to me, but I don't generally play MP, so that may be the cause. In SP I've used support AA for all my AT needs (that isn't a typo) and done perfectly well against the AI's lack of heavy tanks. Line SPAA and SPAT (tank destroyers, panzer flak, etc) have a real use, though. Tanks have armor. The more armor you have, relative to the enemy's piercing stat, the less damage you take. The division's armor stat is an average of the armor stats of every unit in the division. Things that are not tanks (including support companies) reduce this #. The lower the armor rating, the easier it is for your enemy to pierce. This is one of the reasons why support AA is a good substitute for support AT in SP; the AI makes garbage tank divisions (3 tanks and 3 motorized, what?) with comparatively low armor. So if you're building a tank division, 20w or 40w, you want a high armor stat, especially since the AI will use line AT. Since SPAA and SPAT have armor stats (because they are based on tank hulls) they make great additions to a tank division, assuming your industry can support developing and producing them. Some countries have to make do with less than optimal tank formations (7 tank/3 motorized or mechanized) because they don't have the factories to devote to 3 lines of armored production. But for industrial powerhouses like the US, Germany, and USSR, SPAA and SPAT make a good alternative to support AA and support AT. Just make sure to keep an eye on your org levels, too (those are provided by infantry types and by parts of the Mobile Warfare tree) so that your divisions can stick around in a battle longer.

 

[Mr.Bajskorv]

Military Police maybe should give and ORG-boost to the division and/or a gain combat intellegence, so that they might be useful in something else than a offmap suppression division.

 

[DGuller]

Military Police maybe should give and ORG-boost to the division and/or a gain combat intellegence, so that they might be useful in something else than a offmap suppression division.

They kind of are useful for some things, they're essentially an infantry battalion without the combat width. They're not the best at it, but probably in some very specific situation they may be useful for a defense boost.

 

[Secret Master]

They kind of are useful for some things, they're essentially an infantry battalion without the combat width. They're not the best at it, but probably in some very specific situation they may be useful for a defense boost.

Yeah. I've seen some people use them in this way. Normally, I'd want better things in those slots, but if you wanted another INF battalion that doesn't really use width, MPs do that.

 

[DGuller]

Yeah. I've seen some people use them in this way. Normally, I'd want better things in those slots, but if you wanted another INF battalion that doesn't really use width, MPs do that.

I can see it being particularly useful for 10w divisions, where your main concern is to pack as much defense as you can into 10w, so that you don't get too smashed up. That 15% or so boost to defense could make a huge difference, especially since it's very likely that all of it will be needed.