Support Companies and their worth

[TalyonUngol]

So for tanks, 20W and 40W infantry I always use:

Field Hospitals, Engineer, Logistics, Support Artillery and Recon.

But people have said that support Anti air and anti armor are good... so what would I remove and why?

 

[fallgelb22061940]

I would remove field hospitals except if you are country with low manpower, engineers are useful only if you are in defensive whole game, logistic is useful if you have bad supply, useless in high developed Europe, I always use recon, if you have good airforce and enough fuel to run it, you won't need antiair, anti tank i use rarely, only as France, Yugoslavia, sometimes Russia and other countries that are often attacked by Germany. There aren't rules that say use that in that situation, I for example rarely use antiair except if I play weak minor nation. It is your choice, there is no meta for every situation, sometimes you use one thing, sometimes not, it is important to have some space to improvise and to have that flexibility. You will learn it while you get more experienced with this game, good luck

 

[pdstanbridge]

Antiair is a cheaper variant of Anti tank, and is worth it for the piercing alone.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I would remove field hospitals except if you are country with low manpower, engineers are useful only if you are in defensive whole game, logistic is useful if you have bad supply, useless in high developed Europe, I always use recon, if you have good airforce and enough fuel to run it, you won't need antiair, anti tank i use rarely, only as France, Yugoslavia, sometimes Russia and other countries that are often attacked by Germany. There aren't rules that say use that in that situation, I for example rarely use antiair except if I play weak minor nation. It is your choice, there is no meta for every situation, sometimes you use one thing, sometimes not, it is important to have some space to improvise and to have that flexibility. You will learn it while you get more experienced with this game, good luck

What about Signal and Mainteance companies? Theres five slots for support and I like to try and min max this stuff so i can perform well. But since Field Hospitals are good for low manpower, they are good for higher ones as they save manpower. Like Germany and Japan should use them to preserve precious manpower when fighting all the fronts.

 

[General Waluigi]

What about Signal and Mainteance companies? Theres five slots for support and I like to try and min max this stuff so i can perform well. But since Field Hospitals are good for low manpower, they are good for higher ones as they save manpower. Like Germany and Japan should use them to preserve precious manpower when fighting all the fronts.

Signal and maintenance companies are useful for your offensive divisions, like tanks, or 40W infantry if you don’t have tanks yet.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Signal and maintenance companies are useful for your offensive divisions, like tanks, or 40W infantry if you don’t have tanks yet.

Why are signal and maintenance companies useful for offensive divisions? I have over a 1000 hours and alot of these things aren't clear to me.

 

[blahmaster6k]

I would remove field hospitals except if you are country with low manpower, engineers are useful only if you are in defensive whole game, logistic is useful if you have bad supply, useless in high developed Europe, I always use recon, if you have good airforce and enough fuel to run it, you won't need antiair, anti tank i use rarely, only as France, Yugoslavia, sometimes Russia and other countries that are often attacked by Germany. There aren't rules that say use that in that situation, I for example rarely use antiair except if I play weak minor nation. It is your choice, there is no meta for every situation, sometimes you use one thing, sometimes not, it is important to have some space to improvise and to have that flexibility. You will learn it while you get more experienced with this game, good luck

This has some really good info and some really bad info.

I too would remove field hospitals. Unless you're a very rich country that can afford to put them in some 40w infantry they're not worth the cost to sustain offensive operations. Defending infantry take few casualties to begin with so they're not needed at all.

Engineers are a must-have in every division except for cheap coastal garrisons that you don't care too much if they hold or not. They're not used just for entrenchment, but also for the terrain bonuses they give - 10% each on forts, rivers, and urban with each of the three levels after the first. Even with just the base engineer company, they provide movement and defense bonuses on many terrain types, which makes them invaluable.

Recon are good in tanks that you want to make fast encirclements and overruns with, since the division speed +10% is great for getting overruns. The recon bonus is mostly useless, as tests have shown it doesn't really provide any benefit.

Anti-Air is fantastic, it shoots down tons of CAS and reduces the enemy air superiority penalty. This can allow you to make a "no air" build where you focus all your industry into an overwhelming number of tank divisions supported by SPAA.

Artillery and Rocket Artillery are good for soft attack in superior firepower right-side infantry.

Support AT is great at cheaply countering "space marines," or infantry supported by a single heavy tank destroyer.

Signals are good at guaranteeing you reinforce battles fast enough when one division gets disorganized, mostly relevant with 40w divisions partaking in naval invasions where if the battle ends before you can reinforce, you lose even if you have more marines in the reserve.

Logistics are needed mostly on 40w divisions in low supply areas, and especially necessary on tank divisions, as the fuel consumption reduction they provide is fantastic, especially for fuel-starved nations.

Maintenance can help reduce equipment losses for expensive things like tanks, and sustain your infantry by capturing enemy equipment. They're nice to have for poorer nations but not really necessary for rich ones.

EDIT: I should mention that it can actually be beneficial to have few support companies in your tanks due to their presence reducing the average armor value of the division. I usually only include Engineers and Logistics if I'm running heavy tanks, since it makes them harder to pierce with mediums. Mediums will be pierced by other mediums and heavies regardless of support companies, so feel free to load them up with whatever you want. I usually throw in Engineers, Logistics, Signals, Recon, and Maintenance.

 

[blahmaster6k]

Why are signal and maintenance companies useful for offensive divisions? I have over a 1000 hours and alot of these things aren't clear to me.

Signals I explained in my post above, they ensure you can reinforce in time. They also increase planning speed, but because the command power ability exists to quadruple planning speed it's mostly irrelevant.

Maintenance isn't particularly useful unless you have higher tech levels of it, and is more effective the lower your equipment reliability is. If you boost your tank variants to 100% reliability, your tanks don't really need them. I mostly use them in defensive infantry divisions when playing minors to steal tons of equipment when the braindead AI slams into my 10-0 walls.

 

[Reman]

This has some really good info and some really bad info.

I too would remove field hospitals. Unless you're a very rich country that can afford to put them in some 40w infantry they're not worth the cost to sustain offensive operations. Defending infantry take few casualties to begin with so they're not needed at all.

Engineers are a must-have in every division except for cheap coastal garrisons that you don't care too much if they hold or not. They're not used just for entrenchment, but also for the terrain bonuses they give - 10% each on forts, rivers, and urban with each of the three levels after the first. Even with just the base engineer company, they provide movement and defense bonuses on many terrain types, which makes them invaluable.

Recon are good in tanks that you want to make fast encirclements and overruns with, since the division speed +10% is great for getting overruns. The recon bonus is mostly useless, as tests have shown it doesn't really provide any benefit.

Anti-Air is fantastic, it shoots down tons of CAS and reduces the enemy air superiority penalty. This can allow you to make a "no air" build where you focus all your industry into an overwhelming number of tank divisions supported by SPAA.

Artillery and Rocket Artillery are good for soft attack in superior firepower right-side infantry.

Support AT is great at cheaply countering "space marines," or infantry supported by a single heavy tank destroyer.

Signals are good at guaranteeing you reinforce battles fast enough when one division gets disorganized, mostly relevant with 40w divisions partaking in naval invasions where if the battle ends before you can reinforce, you lose even if you have more marines in the reserve.

Logistics are needed mostly on 40w divisions in low supply areas, and especially necessary on tank divisions, as the fuel consumption reduction they provide is fantastic, especially for fuel-starved nations.

Maintenance can help reduce equipment losses for expensive things like tanks, and sustain your infantry by capturing enemy equipment. They're nice to have for poorer nations but not really necessary for rich ones.

EDIT: I should mention that it can actually be beneficial to have few support companies in your tanks due to their presence reducing the average armor value of the division. I usually only include Engineers and Logistics if I'm running heavy tanks, since it makes them harder to pierce with mediums. Mediums will be pierced by other mediums and heavies regardless of support companies, so feel free to load them up with whatever you want. I usually throw in Engineers, Logistics, Signals, Recon, and Maintenance.

This post has the best info in the thread so far. To add a bit:

• Hospitals are indeed a noob trap and shouldn't be used.
• Engineers absolutely should go on all divisions that see combat, both offensive (for terrain bonuses) and defensive (for entrenchment). They're super cheap.
• Recon is worthless except for speed bonuses, so put them on medium/light tanks. There's a cheese strat with light tank recon that lets you get the armor bonus early in the game, but I wouldn't worry about that as a new player.
• AA is balanced really poorly and basically nullifies CAS entirely, but it can (and should) be skipped if you have green air or are going for SPAAs.
• Support AT is basically worthless in SP as it counters a strat the AI never uses.
• Signals are usually not worthwhile in SP, as you can just restart any offensive battle to instantly reinforce. Holding specific tiles is rarely particularly important, outside of certain achievements like Neither Death Nor Dishonor.
• Support artillery is a very IC-efficient way to get soft attack and should go on everything, but you can start taking it off in the late game when supply becomes more important.
• Maintenance is underrated, as the equipment capture means they'll practically always go IC-positive by a fair margin. You at least want to have these on your tanks, and putting them on everything isn't a bad idea if you can afford it.
• Logistics is the strongest support company in the game and singlehandedly wins late game wars. Put it on tanks to start, then on everything when supply becomes more important than industry.

 

[him_15]

IMO Engineer company is a must in almost any division.

 

[Eh up me duck]

Anything but artillery and engineering is a waste on infantry.

Armour I typically have artillery, engineering, logistics and signalling. And rocket artillery if its after 1940.

I dont get the need for aa/at. Maybe aa in specific cases where you're fighting an enemy with air superiority and you dont have the industrial capacity to build fighters, but that's it. In all other cases you should be aspiring for air superiority at all times.

And at is always useless. AI tanks are a non issue.

 

[Secret Master]

The demands of SP are different than MP, so in some cases there is a difference between a vital support company in MP that might be worth far less against the AI.

How I rank support companies against the AI:

Best companies: Support ART. The firepower to IC ratio is pretty damn good here. ENG is also wonderful. The entrenchment on infantry divisions sitting in defense is great, but the real value comes from the mitigation of penalties for rivers and invasions. Support RART is also a good investment if you are already planning to get it.

Solid companies: LOG is basically a license to put more divisions in a supply zone. As a human, you are more likely to face logistical limitations than the AI due to the ability of humans to churn out far more divisions and planes. Trucks are also fairly easy to build, and despite using trucks, LOG doesn't use fuel.

Support AA is a solid choice if you are going no-air, otherwise you probably should skip it.

Situational support companies: RECON for fast moving divisions. Make sure you get RECON that matches the speed of your division. Super fast divisions may need to skip RECON entirely if you can't provide the requisite high-speed LARM to go with it.

MPs can be a good way to reduce the manpower requirement of occupations, but you need to capitalize on it by making large templates with MP and CAV/AC/Whatever you want for suppression. There are also a few situations at certain tech levels where MPs also bring a surprising amount of stats to the table for combat divisions, but that's a complicated discussion I'm not going to get into. Just don't forget to look at the combat stats on MPs if you facing budget constraints.

Mostly unnecessary: Support AT in 90% of cases isn't helping that much. HOSP isn't worth the slot or cost in any but the most manpower starved situations. SIG grants reinforcement chance, but there are so many sources for reinforce chance that I don't think an entire support company is worth it. MAINT doesn't really pay for itself with captured equipment except at high tech levels, and most equipment in vanilla HOI4 has plenty of reliability.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Well, there are def some conflicting opinions here on it, but it sounds like I don't really need AA or AT, and my current build for all my units are good except the recon. I can change recon out of my infantry and put in something else. Maybe signals.

I use a mixture of 10W port, 20W holding/defense infantry, 40W Infantry for pushing, medium tanks for encirclements and I tend to stop using light tanks when I get a good medium line going. Ive not found much use for light tanks in the late game. Might just use light tanks as a recon for extra armor on the infantry.

I use the field hospitals even as Germany as it saves me extra manpower when fighting against USA, Soviet, France, UK and all the other allied nations. It's not been an issue for my industry. I dont put it on immediatly of course but when I get my industry built up then its worth it.

I also include logistics for everyone just because it helps with any supply that might come like fighting in Russia or in the north, or Africa or China.

Field hospitals just save my troops from losses as much as it can and its worth it. I was just curious about my build but it sounds like theres not much to put in. Maybe rockets I can find a place to put it in. Use that instead of field hospitals for the tanks and give the mediums and heavys extra pushing power.

 

[Reman]

Mostly unnecessary: Support AT in 90% of cases isn't helping that much. HOSP isn't worth the slot or cost in any but the most manpower starved situations. SIG grants reinforcement chance, but there are so many sources for reinforce chance that I don't think an entire support company is worth it. MAINT doesn't really pay for itself with captured equipment except at high tech levels, and most equipment in vanilla HOI4 has plenty of reliability.

You should embrace the power of maintenance companies, at least on tank divisions. Cleaning up encirclements with dozens of enemy divisions can net you thousands of infantry kits and hundreds of support equipment from single battles even at just a 10% capture ratio. Now that occupations serve as a constant drain on equipment, capturing stuff from enemies can let you switch a few factories from infantry kits to tanks/planes.

 

[shepherd352]

I've been adding Recon to everything (except port defense). I guess that changes in my next game.

 

[Secret Master]

You should embrace the power of maintenance companies, at least on tank divisions. Cleaning up encirclements with dozens of enemy divisions can net you thousands of infantry kits and hundreds of support equipment from single battles even at just a 10% capture ratio. Now that occupations serve as a constant drain on equipment, capturing stuff from enemies can let you switch a few factories from infantry kits to tanks/planes.

Every time I use them in vanilla, they never pay for themselves in terms of support equipment spent versus equipment captured. Even when I encircle and wipe huge swaths of the Red Army.

I haven't tested them just on panzer formations in awhile, though. The last time I used them, it was MAINT on everything fighting on the front line, and it was a ton of expense.

On the other hand, in our MP mod, we lowered reliability on lots of land stuff like trucks and tanks, so I use them with great frequency in MP. That's more about reducing attrition losses, though.

 

[Casko]

I've been adding Recon to everything (except port defense). I guess that changes in my next game.

Recon is fine, though Engineer companies is flat out superior.

Every time I use them in vanilla, they never pay for themselves in terms of support equipment spent versus equipment captured. Even when I encircle and wipe huge swaths of the Red Army.

May be just me, but for me, MAINT requires to be upgraded atleast once for it to start to matter more, so if you're using MAINT, you're most definitely require to use up research to make them worth their investment.

Similarly I feel that MAINT is most important when it comes to mechanized divisions or mechanized armor divisions more so, if used in tank divisions.

That said I might be wrong when you actually begin to crunch the numbers. but this is my take on matter.


Similarly on earlier discussion, Signal Companies are superior when it comes to 40width, however, when it comes to 20 widths, I feel that a build of Engineering, Hospital / Logistics, AA and ART is the way to go.

Well, there are def some conflicting opinions here on it, but it sounds like I don't really need AA or AT, and my current build for all my units are good except the recon. I can change recon out of my infantry and put in something else. Maybe signals.

I'd disagree, and argue that NOT putting support artillery on everything larger than 10 width is hurting more than helping, simply because of how Support Artillery gives you in terms of stats for how cheap it is, even if the division itself is a 20with pure infantry otherwise.

 

[CrasherZZ]

I've been adding Recon to everything (except port defense). I guess that changes in my next game.

Recon plus Engineers gives significant movement and combat bonuses which can be useful for low-infrasture, mountainous areas such as in Asia and Africa - areas where Japan and the UK would be fighting in. For Germany and USSR, recon probably has limited usefulness in Europe.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Recon plus Engineers gives significant movement and combat bonuses which can be useful for low-infrasture, mountainous areas such as in Asia and Africa - areas where Japan and the UK would be fighting in. For Germany and USSR, recon probably has limited usefulness in Europe.

Eh I find at times in Russia I lose supply. Europe, not so much but its just valuable over all to just keep them on i find. Bonuses that you have that t he enemy won't. Signals dont seem all that useful. I rarely use rocket artillery.

 

[squid_hills]

The answer to the question depends on: Single Player or Multi Player games, and which country are you playing as? The AI doesn't use space marines, so support AT in a SP is a waste. Multiplayer games may use it (if it isn't against the rules for that match) so AT becomes worthwhile. China has limitless manpower reserves, so hospitals are a waste of resources, but Italy isn't swimming in fighty dudes, so they benefit from having some. And so on. Here's my $0.02:

Engineers go in everything. EVERYTHING. Except garrison templates. That would be silly. The terrain and entrenchment bonuses are fantastic for both offense and defense, so always use them. Always.

Support ART goes in everything, with the exception of garrisons. The soft attack is too useful to pass up.

Hospitals are only for nations that have low manpower and/or rely on infantry/cavalry to do most of their fighting due to industrial deficencies. XP and manpower retention is a huge help.

Support AA is amazeballs. Goes in everything except garrisons. Yes, yes, you are supposed to build planes and command the skies. Good luck doing that as a minor when Germany decides they like how your country tastes. With support AA you can offset the enemy's air support bonus, shoot down his planes (forcing him to build new ones... this matters if your enemy's air force is bigger than yours but not well-supported factory-wise) and pierce his tanks. That last one is something most players overlook. Support AA gives enough piercing that you can counter light and medium tanks with ease. It's not as reliable against heavy tanks (depends on how far down your respective tech trees you and the other guy are) but it'll do for most of what you'll see in SP. It's like getting 2 support companies but only paying for one!

Supply companies are great, if you are going to be fighting in areas with poor infrastructure and bad supply routes, or if you are supporting an ally who doesn't prioritize infra projects in newly-conquered territory. They also cut down on fuel use in tank divisions, and saving gas wins wars.

Recon is... situational. The division speed boost is nice, but that is all you will get from it. The alleged initiative bonus never seems to materialize when people on the forums test it out, so I doubt it even exists. If going faster matters to you, go for it, but IMHO there are more important things to grab first.

Signal companies are also situational. Some people swear by them; some swear by them only in tank divisions. I never use them, but that's just me.

Support AT is meh. Single player has no need for it; use AA instead. Multi-player might have a use, if your opponents are sexually attracted to heavy and super-heavy tanks. Support AA isn't going to do much to a late game heavy. You'll need real AT to pierce that.

Maintenance is great for tanks, as it keeps them from suffering losses due to reliability issues. If your industry is barely able to keep tanks in the field (Italy!) then these are super worthwhile, as they keep your tanks in the field longer. You also can capture equipment with them. That isn't a big deal to Germany or the US, but to an industry-starved country that is going to be on the defensive, it can keep you fighting while your enemy bleeds himself out on you.

Rocket ARTY is great if you have the industry to support it. A support rocket company has twice as many rocket guns as an artillery company has cannons, so you'll need to commit twice the industry, but rocket guns get bonuses from both the artillery research tree and the rocket technology research tree. They have the potential to stack some big bonuses for bigger booms. Having both support ART and support rocket ART, while running Superior Firepower, can make infantry offensives surprisingly effective. These go on infantry/cav divisions. Tanks have no need for them, and they would reduce the division's armor rating anyway.

Military Police only go in garrison templates, but they are a must-have. They reduce the amount of manpower you waste holding territory and that is the most wonderful thing in the world.

I usually play minors, so I rarely have the IC to stack everything I want right from the start. I prioritize support ART and engineers first. Once I have those in everything, I'll add logistic groups. By this point I'm getting close to poking a major or a friend of a major, so I'll throw in AA. Hospitals are next if I need manpower. If I don't need hospitals, I wait till support rocket arty is available.

I hope you find all that helpful!