Support battalions or regiments instead of support brigades

[Nicolas I]

Well the title of the thread is quite clear. From my knowledge, most support units were battalions or regiment sized.

I would want a system somewhat like that (just an example to launch the discussion, alternative propositions welcomed):

-Divisions made of 3 regular brigades of 3000 and up to 4 supports battalions of about 250 or 2 regiments of 500. So support could be about 10% of troops.

-After researching superior firepower (or another mechanism since we don't know how it will work in HOI4), divisions made of 3 regular brigades with up to 6 supports battalions of about 250 or 3 regiments of 500, so support could be about 15% of troops.

*Maybe there should also be a maximum limit of 2 support units of the same type in a division.
**I think emphasis should not be only over the number of troops in support units, but what bonuses they can give the division.

This is a starting proposition, I would like even more support battalions/regiments in number and types, maybe up to 25% of the troops.

But the system must be not to complicated to implement for Paradox (but as some mods already did it I don't think that is a big problem), not add to much micromanagement (more templates divisions types could be a solution for those who fear that), and finally but maybe the most difficult that the AI could learn how to use these supports brigades or at least use the right templates divisions.

So what's you opinions and ideas Paradoxians ?

 

[-Toni82-]

From HOI3 point of view, and only from this we can speak, cause of experience ....
....I would say, that support units should be attached automaticly, when you build an division (not speaking of combat-support brigades, like artillery, tank destroyers,...)
Support units should be responsible for supply transport (picking it up from choosable supply depot back of front in an ideal way), responsible for manpower loose compensation, refitting equipment and so on.
As you should be able to bomb the visible divisions support by air missions, or for this kind of warfare competent partisans, your hole division get some penalties in skills to supply transport, compensate of loses, morale and so on.

I would say, from HOI3 perspective, that if you build up a Division with 10.000 men (Inf/Inf/Inf/Art), you pay for building 15.000 men/IC and these 1/3 non-combat visible support brigades/whatever are attached when you deploy your Division.
Support units moving and doing automaticly for supply.
Just an example.

As for amount of men, I know that in WW2 for every 3 german combat soldiers came 1 supply soldier. In the US army it was quite opposite, for 1 combat soldier they needed 47 supply soldiers (probably naval convoi guys including).
So, for HOI some 1/4 to 1/3 or even 1/2 can be discussed.
Maybe you could solve or reduce the needed supply brigades by tech?

Just my 2 cent

 

[Nicolas I]

I have no problem with supply troops being abstracted and anyway if you hit an unit its organization and strength are already touched.

My problem is the size of support units and the number/diversity of this kind of units.

Paradox already added some support brigades used in mods, they can maybe go a step farther improving support units...

 

[CoorsHeavy]

The HPP mod for HoI3 has a great system for this with horse-drawn, truck, or mechanized support brigades.

 

[Lord Rommel]

Paradox should implement "support units" on corps or army level like crops artillery brigades/regiments/Abteilungen (the german version ) or army tank destroyer brigades/regiments/Abteilungen.
When u have a tank army in front of your troops just send the corps levelled or army levelled tank destroyers to get bonus (hard attack) against the enemy's armor.

 

[Nicolas I]

Paradox should implement "support units" on corps or army level like crops artillery brigades/regiments/Abteilungen (the german version ) or army tank destroyer brigades/regiments/Abteilungen.

That is also a good idea that needs a system to attach/detach these corps level supports units. Maybe when you detach the unit it automatically goes back to the corps pool with a kind of cooling period before it becomes available again to deploy or the same kind of organization hit that exists in HOI3 when you change a leader.

 

[Jorlaan]

Unified support brigades are one of the most important things that were left out of HoI3. NO ARMY would willingly leave behind key equipment like TD's and artillery, simply because they already have AA. It makes no sense.

Ever since the HPP mod started using unified support brigades I can only look upon the vanilla game as a really bad joke. Honestly I know it is SUPER early to say this but if everything is split up again I'll just give 4 a total pass.

Of course you can still build an individual TD brigade which performs that one function exceptionally and use it where needed.
A standard infantry division really should NOT have to choose between TD and artillery though and so they use the unified brigade.

 

[Mannstien]

I'd prefer to make my own choice as to what support units get attached to my divisions such as used in BICE, If they are abstracted or put into some unified unit unless for instance Mountain Support Brigade vs. Inf support brigade I see a ton of negative modifiers in my SF divisions.

 

[dschoen]

The only mod I know of to really get it right is Deutsche Wehrmacht Immersion mod. You can get down to regimental and battalion level, and divisions become properly self-sufficient entities, with organic artillery, AT, and engineers for every unit. I agree that HOI needs to move toward a more realistic depiction of support battalions.

 

[Bullfrog]

We don't yet know if division construction a la HoI3 will be included in HoI4. In one of the preview articles it states that this is no longer the case in a roundabout way, saying instead the various equipment must be produced first. I take it that this could mean that brigades are not used. I actually don't mind this at all. The HoI3 system was a great concept but it was flawed in execution. Here's why- the division was an organization designed for being fully capable of independent operations and thereby included all sub-units required to fulfill a particular role. Don't get bogged down in HoI classifications of divisions, because in essence there were not large differences in a divisional makeup from one "type" to another aside from equipment required for its primary utilization. What I mean is that a tank division still needed all the subunits that an infantry division needed, the difference being that it contained vehicles enough to transport the entire division. Missions and capability were generally different, sure. But the mainstays: artillery, anti tank, engineers, recon, etc, in support of either 6 or 9 maneuver units (regiments) were included in all divisions. The differences between these support battalions were the modes of travel, and that's about it. Sure there'd be an occasional AAA battalion or non organic "attached" tank battalions included in the division OOB. But this is largely doctrinal and depended on availability.

In real life the differences across the entire spectrum of fielded divisions of this era were far fewer than HoI3's construction feature suggests. In TFH we got even more confused by the piercing and armor attributes and the combined arms bonus, which seemed to promote odd combinations of brigades, while not moving the feature to its full potential.

The best way to continue with a division construction feature in HoI4 would be to break every unit type into one size- battalions (650-1000 men). Land Doctrine would prescribe a propensity for binary, triangular or square divisions. Which means 6, 9, or 12 maneuver battalions, respectively. Then a truly fully capable division would require the standard support units: *Arty, AT, Eng, recon, etc. (*There should be room for light and heavy artillery battalions, generally a mix of 3 or 4). Additional room could be given for an extra battalion of your choice for increased ability in one area, such as an extra tank or engineer battalion.

While it sounds like unnecessary micromanagement and bland one size-fits-all divisions (which we tend towards anyway), it would mean a big step toward realism. It would also take a lot of the guessing game away from the construction feature.

 

[FOARP]

Yeah, the real issue here is that all divisions in an army had much the same support-structure, with the difference being in mechanisation. I always just assumed that this was subsumed into the brigades you deployed because anything else wouldn't make sense. Simply because a division doesn't have an AT/Arty./AA brigade doesn't mean it has no AT/Arty./AA component.

What I would suggest is if we still have a brigade system in HOI4, that divisions have a "root" unit containing all the division support weapons/logistics/HQ/etc. the complement of which is determined by the player and by doctrine.

 

[No idea]

We don't yet know if division construction a la HoI3 will be included in HoI4. In one of the preview articles it states that this is no longer the case in a roundabout way, saying instead the various equipment must be produced first. I take it that this could mean that brigades are not used. I actually don't mind this at all. The HoI3 system was a great concept but it was flawed in execution. Here's why- the division was an organization designed for being fully capable of independent operations and thereby included all sub-units required to fulfill a particular role. Don't get bogged down in HoI classifications of divisions, because in essence there were not large differences in a divisional makeup from one "type" to another aside from equipment required for its primary utilization. What I mean is that a tank division still needed all the subunits that an infantry division needed, the difference being that it contained vehicles enough to transport the entire division. Missions and capability were generally different, sure. But the mainstays: artillery, anti tank, engineers, recon, etc, in support of either 6 or 9 maneuver units (regiments) were included in all divisions. The differences between these support battalions were the modes of travel, and that's about it. Sure there'd be an occasional AAA battalion or non organic "attached" tank battalions included in the division OOB. But this is largely doctrinal and depended on availability.

In real life the differences across the entire spectrum of fielded divisions of this era were far fewer than HoI3's construction feature suggests. In TFH we got even more confused by the piercing and armor attributes and the combined arms bonus, which seemed to promote odd combinations of brigades, while not moving the feature to its full potential.

The best way to continue with a division construction feature in HoI4 would be to break every unit type into one size- battalions (650-1000 men). Land Doctrine would prescribe a propensity for binary, triangular or square divisions. Which means 6, 9, or 12 maneuver battalions, respectively. Then a truly fully capable division would require the standard support units: *Arty, AT, Eng, recon, etc. (*There should be room for light and heavy artillery battalions, generally a mix of 3 or 4). Additional room could be given for an extra battalion of your choice for increased ability in one area, such as an extra tank or engineer battalion.

While it sounds like unnecessary micromanagement and bland one size-fits-all divisions (which we tend towards anyway), it would mean a big step toward realism. It would also take a lot of the guessing game away from the construction feature.

It MIGHT be a good idea, BUT it is not going to happen (PDS is not going for more detail, and you must agree battalion level is a lot of detail, but for less), SO, I would rather keep the old system for now

Apart from that, in HoI 3 ALL DIVISIONS got its own support units integrated. All Infantry units had artillery, anti tank guns and so on. What the support brigades reflected was not the existance of those units in a given divisions, but a vey high number of that particular support brigade in a given division. So, in the tipical 3 INF division, you already get artillery, anti tank and AA artillery. Engineers, military police units... IF you give it an artillery support brigade, what you are doing is giving that division a far bigger number of tubes than a normal infantry division has. So, I dont see how this system is flawed. The only flaw is that the player (not the AI) gave every division a support unit, so, in the end, the player divisions were all larger, more powerful than the supposed normal divisions and, in a game that favours firepower concentration, that is a good adventage.

 

[snoopy1710]

I personally like the structure of DWI the most (up to 9 regiments/batallions per division). The downside however is a lot of micromanagement (adding battalions to existing divisions, upgrading etc).

I would like to see an "Upgrade between templates" implemented, where divisions would morph from say Infantry-39 to Infantry-43 (with the latter additional battalions like Stugs, or mechanized/self-propelled versions). Kind of what you can do in HOI3 on a per brigade level, but on a Division and overall level (e.g. upgrade my 35 Divisions type x to y).

Snoopy

 

[aphrochine]

With equipment being introduced, I would think there is gonna be some kind of modular equipment structure to divisions. I doubt there will be large independent "bde" units, but rather smaller packets of "equipment" oriented elements that have a certain quantity. Who knows though.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

I just want to build customised divisions, i use little fighters so i want extra AA, and i want minimise tank threat so i add extra AT unit. I also love terrain bonuses, so perhaps change one of those infantry units to somekind of ranger/jäger/light inf unit.

 

[Ilhador]

From any realistic point of view all the division build up in HoI3 made no sense at all

 

[FOARP]

From any realistic point of view all the division build up in HoI3 made no sense at all

Well, I always just assumed that there were brigade-level AA/AT/Arty. assets you couldn't see, but yeah, it was a poor way of modelling differing levels of support to have to attach entire brigades.

Who knows? It may be in HOI4 you simply decide how many AA/AT/Arty. guns, tanks etc. there are in a division, without having to play around with brigades?

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Well, I always just assumed that there were brigade-level AA/AT/Arty. assets you couldn't see, but yeah, it was a poor way of modelling differing levels of support to have to attach entire brigades.

Who knows? It may be in HOI4 you simply decide how many AA/AT/Arty. guns, tanks etc. there are in a division, without having to play around with brigades?

Some kind of slider? It works too, but i prefer being able to build 50 flak 88.

 

[FOARP]

Some kind of slider? It works too, but i prefer being able to build 50 flak 88.

Slider or raw figures? I remember TOAW had raw figures (tanks, guns, riflemen, machine-gun squads) for all formations right up to Army-groups. Why not a system where you set the levels of equipment your divisions have (24 artillery guns, 24 AA guns, 24 AT guns, 256 tanks, 1800 riflemen etc. etc.) or at least a more simplified version of this?

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Slider or raw figures? I remember TOAW had raw figures (tanks, guns, riflemen, machine-gun squads) for all formations right up to Army-groups. Why not a system where you set the levels of equipment your divisions have (24 artillery guns, 24 AA guns, 24 AT guns, 256 tanks, 1800 riflemen etc. etc.) or at least a more simplified version of this?

I would be fine with that.