Supply

[womble]

Im sure that Johan is getting more and more frustrated as he asked for saved game files so he can fix it, only gets post after post of how it doesn't work, and very few game files.

Show him, don't tell him.

Given the obscure nature of the supply system, is it really any surprise people react to "Don't post if you don't understand" by seeking a better understanding before wasting his time poring thru save games that are actually WAD?

He can't 'fix' the supply system without rewriting it, as far as I can understand it. It's FUBAR and SNAFU, all at once.

 

[Chaplain]

Ah yes, this is rich. I always knew that most of the people saying the supply system was broken simply didn't understand it. I'm not saying there aren't niggles here and there, but "broken"? We'll see.

Having been around HOI and its siblings for a long time, the flood of recent histrionics has been amusing.

 

[Teurlinx]

Ah yes, this is rich. I always knew that most of the people saying the supply system was broken simply didn't understand it. I'm not saying there aren't niggles here and there, but "broken"? We'll see.

Having been around HOI and its siblings for a long time, the flood of recent histrionics has been amusing.

Having a province like San Diego out of supply counts as a bug to me, failure to reproduce isn't strange if you take a look at how dynamic the supply system is.

Having troops OOS in Corpus Christi because they're embarked on a fleet that's also OOS from Miami looks like a bug as well. This one IS reproducable, but probably isn't what Johan is looking for.

In fact, who knows what Johan is looking for? It's not like we all share his divine wisdom on how the supply system is supposed to work. We've got to stare at not the most informative of map modes, nose through the game files and draw our own conclusions from it.

If it's WAD that units embarked on a fleet get OOS when they are still in your country... I'll be baffled and will shut up.

 

[delra]

I spent quite a while watching supply map after this post showed up but I fail to see anything out of ordinary in there. Can someone write more about how the bug in question is supposed to show itself?

Maybe this bug is just urban legend.

 

[Teurlinx]

I spent quite a while watching supply map after this post showed up but I fail to see anything out of ordinary in there. Can someone write more about how the bug in question is supposed to show itself?

Maybe this bug is just urban legend.

It's simple, you'll see the 'Units out of Supply' icon for units still in your own nation. This should never ever happen to units in a nation with
- plenty supplies (USA, maxed supplies)
- a traceable land route from the units to the capital (units in mainland USA)
- enough time allowed for the supply system to trace a route to the units. (half a year should be plenty)

If it happens in this situation, something went wrong.

 

[wuffer]

I have looked virtually hours and hours on the supply map during various campagnes, patches and AI/multiplayer games.
And yes, Johan is right - I haven't seen a not explainable issue in 1.3.
BUT the way supply is designed seemes to me not, hmm, the strongest point of the game engine yet.

What I would call broken, not as true bug, but a really painful feeling in gameplay:
the only way to avoid the big traffic jam in Berlin is to built as much industry as possible in all provinces that transport supply to relieve the capital. Ok, but how to achieve this in a later scenario? Load the Götterdämmerung... Trafficjam in Berlin??? I quit. Immediately . Honest.
This sight made me sick.
And even building IC on airfields etc. since 1936 is NO guarantee that my fighter based airdefense have enough supply/fuel ALL the time. It really makes me feeling insane that the very last and totally unimportant garnision get supply, but my most important units didn't.

The actual design lookes for a demand and that is not the best way of strategic warfare with fast moving units.Since Dschingis Chan we all know the importance of strategically placed stockpiles - we should be able to put supply beforehand a offensive.
Actually, the design is cheating also: When a division is conquering foreign territory, she is suddenly supplied - a German panzer corps could easily move total supplied through the complete SU as long as they didn't stop... WAD?? I would exspect this in a game like Age of Empires, but not from a clever swedish software factory.

To make it short: Johan, play your game. Make first a nice logistically bombing on your opponents capital, e.g. Moskwa.
Infra down to zero, ok?
Now just switch sides... Of course, the system works absolutly perfect.

 

[Modestus]

Ah yes, this is rich. I always knew that most of the people saying the supply system was broken simply didn't understand it. I'm not saying there aren't niggles here and there, but "broken"? We'll see.

Having been around HOI and its siblings for a long time, the flood of recent histrionics has been amusing.

Yes indeed the histrionics of sitting in my underpants in Alexandria waiting for a new pair.

And wondering why I cannot go out on the town tonight.

Are you joking me the supply system does not work.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics.

I'm glad the system is complex.

 

[unmerged(185039)]

"Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics"!? Are you quoting somebody or just yourself? That quote is a load of BS, obviously by someone that does not understand war. You cannot have a strategy without logistics, nor can you have logistics without a strategy! Amateurs study one or the other, professionals study both!

Anyway, I agree a complex supply system is a good thing, as long as it works! And it generally does, but not all the time and not very efficiantly. Hopefully though Johan will get his hands on a few good savgames which actually have valid supply issues so he can get things sorted out. Myself, I would just like more control over my supply distribution (ie. Priority distribution for active units air/land/sea & entire HQ chains). Also a bit more info when things go wrong (ie. Fronts stalling for months with no apperant reason and no explanation).

Sorry Johan no saves here, oddly enough I've not encountered any problems on the same scale others have. Those I have had were due to low port levels, bad infrastructure and the limit of throughput from my capital(can this capital limit be increased for the next patch, is it a relatively simple fix, is there anything I can do to get around it for now?)

Happy Holidays Everyone!

 

[TheLoneGunman]

"Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics"!? Are you quoting somebody or just yourself? That quote is a load of BS, obviously by someone that does not understand war. You cannot have a strategy without logistics, nor can you have logistics without a strategy! Amateurs study one or the other, professionals study both!

Anyway, I agree a complex supply system is a good thing, as long as it works! And it generally does, but not all the time and not very efficiantly. Hopefully though Johan will get his hands on a few good savgames which actually have valid supply issues so he can get things sorted out. Myself, I would just like more control over my supply distribution (ie. Priority distribution for active units air/land/sea & entire HQ chains). Also a bit more info when things go wrong (ie. Fronts stalling for months with no apperant reason and no explanation).

Sorry Johan no saves here, oddly enough I've not encountered any problems on the same scale others have. Those I have had were due to low port levels, bad infrastructure and the limit of throughput from my capital(can this capital limit be increased for the next patch, is it a relatively simple fix, is there anything I can do to get around it for now?)

Happy Holidays Everyone!

The quote is often attributed to Omar Bradley, though there's no consensus that it was actually him.

And Happy Holidays as well!

 

[delra]

"Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics"!? Are you quoting somebody or just yourself? That quote is a load of BS, obviously by someone that does not understand war. You cannot have a strategy without logistics, nor can you have logistics without a strategy! Amateurs study one or the other, professionals study both!

Anyway, I agree a complex supply system is a good thing, as long as it works! And it generally does, but not all the time and not very efficiantly. Hopefully though Johan will get his hands on a few good savgames which actually have valid supply issues so he can get things sorted out. Myself, I would just like more control over my supply distribution (ie. Priority distribution for active units air/land/sea & entire HQ chains). Also a bit more info when things go wrong (ie. Fronts stalling for months with no apperant reason and no explanation).

Sorry Johan no saves here, oddly enough I've not encountered any problems on the same scale others have. Those I have had were due to low port levels, bad infrastructure and the limit of throughput from my capital(can this capital limit be increased for the next patch, is it a relatively simple fix, is there anything I can do to get around it for now?)

Happy Holidays Everyone!

Lol. Veldmarshaalk went rogue? Oh wait, it's a different one.

 

[AlanC9]

Veldmarshaalk ought to sue for something. Defamation? Identity theft?

It's simple, you'll see the 'Units out of Supply' icon for units still in your own nation. This should never ever happen to units in a nation with
- plenty supplies (USA, maxed supplies)
- a traceable land route from the units to the capital (units in mainland USA)
- enough time allowed for the supply system to trace a route to the units. (half a year should be plenty)

If it happens in this situation, something went wrong.

Does it happen in that situation? I've never seen it.

 

[MontanaPrussian]

"Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics"!? Are you quoting somebody or just yourself? That quote is a load of BS, obviously by someone that does not understand war. You cannot have a strategy without logistics, nor can you have logistics without a strategy! Amateurs study one or the other, professionals study both!

Anyway, I agree a complex supply system is a good thing, as long as it works! And it generally does, but not all the time and not very efficiantly. Hopefully though Johan will get his hands on a few good savgames which actually have valid supply issues so he can get things sorted out. Myself, I would just like more control over my supply distribution (ie. Priority distribution for active units air/land/sea & entire HQ chains). Also a bit more info when things go wrong (ie. Fronts stalling for months with no apperant reason and no explanation).

Sorry Johan no saves here, oddly enough I've not encountered any problems on the same scale others have. Those I have had were due to low port levels, bad infrastructure and the limit of throughput from my capital(can this capital limit be increased for the next patch, is it a relatively simple fix, is there anything I can do to get around it for now?)

Happy Holidays Everyone!

The quote should read..."Amatuers study Tactics,Professionals study Logistics".

 

[womble]

I'm glad the system is complex.

It's not complex. It's obscure. Underneath, whatever complexity there is in selecting where supply is actually delivered follows no discernible, consistent logic. I've seen supply being delivered to provinces my troops have never been in, which are nowhere near a high Infra route to where my troops actually are. Troops that have been in place for over a year running out of supplies when they start to advance (not run off over the horizon, but fighting for every province) across a broad front with no bottlenecks. The supply system manufactures bottlenecks and will not add new routes.

The whole logic of supply (it flows in to a single point, then out) is just desperate.

 

[plasticpanzers]

I still cannot tell that supply is working properly. A supply line is something that is laid
out by staff of the logistic unit. once set supplies should run pretty freely from the depot
to the units with delays for chokepoints, weather, and enemy action. They should not
wander about like some string on the ground in the wind. Perhaps later on PI will release
an update on how its supposed to work so when you look at the map you feel less like
banging your head on the table trying to figure out why 3 units on the same infrastructure,
same terrain and only the ones on either side get supply and a year has gone
by.

 

[Tunceben]

I have added a save game along with some screenshots in this thread in the bug reports.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=451442

 

[Porkman]

Ah yes, this is rich. I always knew that most of the people saying the supply system was broken simply didn't understand it. I'm not saying there aren't niggles here and there, but "broken"? We'll see.

Having been around HOI and its siblings for a long time, the flood of recent histrionics has been amusing.

Instead of having to shoot down a bunch of "whiners" in every thread, wouldn't it be easier to just post a stickied thread called, "Why supply is the way it is." Supply through puppets, unit stockpiles, and other design decisions could be explained. If most of the complaints are from people who "just don't understand" then it seems like the priority would be helping them understand.

 

[Tortuga Power]

Instead of having to shoot down a bunch of "whiners" in every thread, wouldn't it be easier to just post a stickied thread called, "Why supply is the way it is." Supply through puppets, unit stockpiles, and other design decisions could be explained. If most of the complaints are from people who "just don't understand" then it seems like the priority would be helping them understand.

Well said. I would be interested in knowing how the supply system works just purely for the joy of understanding some complicated mathematical equation. That's what being a physicist does to you, I'm afraid.

I personally have not experienced any strange supply problems in 1.3, other than the normal ones. Of course, I have not played as Japan yet...

 

[TheLoneGunman]

The quote should read..."Amatuers study Tactics,Professionals study Logistics".

Google let me down, because I couldn't recall the exact quote. Thank you!

 

[MontanaPrussian]

Google let me down, because I couldn't recall the exact quote. Thank you!

You are most welcome