Supply

[Johan]

I'd really really want to get some savegames where people have a broken supply-system. We've not been able to reproduce it, nor have any of the betas, and there seems to be some people here saying its broken.

No, I'm not talking about not being able to trace through allies or puppets properly, but actual network failures.

 

[unmerged(55246)]

Where do you want a save game sent ?
I am not sure what you exactly mean with supply network broken .
If it means that dozens of provinces don't get ANY supply during 4 months (or more) while there is enough supplies for everybody , then I can reproduce it easily .
Right now I have a Japan game with 20 Divisions or so sitting out of supply W of Baikal lake . They arrived there in june and now it is december . So roughly 6 months out of supply and it is not finished yet .
I keep a saved game for you if you tell me how to get the file and whereto send it .

 

[Alex_brunius]

I think they are more looking for problems that were more common in 1.2 or 1.1.

One example would be German troops in Stalingrad having supply but no troops in France getting supplies. Or airports/ports getting bypassed because supply getting priority through other routes even if they are close and 100% infrastructure.

Those would be good example of "Network failures" I think. I haven't seen any that severe ones in 1.3.

I think it would be more important to get the AI to understand the supply & stacking systems though. Not landing or stacking more units then can be supplied, and pulling back units that are out of supplies to safer locations.

 

[Surt]

Edit: that was not at good starter line

I will give it a try, here is my Japanese VH game, as you can see there is lots of out of supply(OOS) units.

Hmm, no way to attach pics and saves so I'll post it in bug reports.

 

[Johan]

I am not interested in reports from people who do not understand how the logistics works, as that would just waste my and your time.

Yes units will be out of supply when some are not. Please don't report such issues if there are actual chokepoints that is blocking distribution of supplies.

 

[TheDarkside]

Johan,what about a situation where, playing as Japan and having annexed China, here is one point of entry for supplies for the entirety of the Chinese mainland. From this one port which happens to be on the coast in the far north east it is even expected to supply units on the far south western coast - near Indochina. Placing units there there have supply problems due to the distance and poor infrastructure of driving those supplies across the Chinese mainland. Yet logically the common sense thing anyone would do is have setup another point of entry for supplies to a port in the south west since the sea route would be so much faster and more efficient. I have got that kind of situation.

 

[Myndpyre]

Just looked and all of my saved games I have pushed through the supply crashes via mass air transport.

I will restart some of my games and try to get back with you.

 

[jmschaub]

The big one is northern China. There's been an issue written about that one specifically. Supply is fine until that Northern Chinese Port is taken. Then all your units go out of supply. Not very realistic, even if it does follow the rules. Your supply should take the path of least resistance, not necessarly the shortest path. If supplies flow perfectly from the north then it shouldn't switch to the new port until it's ready to recieve supplies. This is assuming that that one particular port isn't broken. (Which it might be with the bug I wrote about transporting to the wrong port). I've also seen cut off units near Shanghai be in full supply while the troops on the other supply side be out of supply. Both were in supply before the cutoff. We can't see the numbers behind these things. We don't always get a handy save game for that situation, as we're trying to play the game not beta test But I know that the Chinese landscape is acting very strange. Perhaps someone there can try to play as Japan a few times. It's happened every single time I start a new game as Japan (at least 3 different games).

 

[Johan]

The big one is northern China. There's been an issue written about that one specifically. Supply is fine until that Northern Chinese Port is taken. Then all your units go out of supply. Not very realistic, even if it does follow the rules. Your supply should take the path of least resistance, not necessarly the shortest path. If supplies flow perfectly from the north then it shouldn't switch to the new port until it's ready to recieve supplies. This is assuming that that one particular port isn't broken. (Which it might be with the bug I wrote about transporting to the wrong port). I've also seen cut off units near Shanghai be in full supply while the troops on the other supply side be out of supply. Both were in supply before the cutoff. We can't see the numbers behind these things. We don't always get a handy save game for that situation, as we're trying to play the game not beta test But I know that the Chinese landscape is acting very strange. Perhaps someone there can try to play as Japan a few times. It's happened every single time I start a new game as Japan (at least 3 different games).

Already a known problem, but it is related to the puppet problematic, and not the kind of supply problems that we're looking for.

 

[Teurlinx]

You mean issues like that port in Southern California being short on supplies for the USA? That would seem easy to reproduce. There seem to be other areas where the ai refuses to have supplies sent for a while, but in SoCal is the only one I've seen that persisted many years and for no good reason.

- edit - after checking my USA saves, I do have one with supply problems at the start. It's 1941 I decided to give the theater to AI control, somehow 8 divisions embarked on Miami based transports got stuck in Corpus Christi. The fleet is out of supply, and the troops also (they seem to draw resources from Miami, not from Corpus Christi where an abundance of supplies & fuel has accumulated.
I ran the save game 3 times, every time with a different result.

First time I let the situation as it was to see what would happen. The ai added more ships to the transport stack to make the supply problem worse and the fleet kept being stuck in Corpus Christi. Miami became low on supplies as well. I decided to detach the transport fleet from the hierarchy and transport them to Miami and see what would happen. The troops unloaded and promptly moved North. Miami kept having supply problems though.

Second time I detached the transports earlier and transported them to Miami as before, now all troops got off, went North, and all supply problems soon vanished.

Third time, I waited for a while again, the transport fleet again grew in size due to the ai. After about 4 months I detached the fleet and did the transport to Miami mission again, Miami had supply problems for a while after the troops unloaded and went North, but after a while Miami went into supply again.


- Seems to be hard to 'create' a bad supply spot on a test since the supply system is way to dynamic to easily manipulate in one way.
- I couldn't find the San Diego / Los Angelos supply problem in these saves, but not sure if things change after reloading or if it just aren't the same saves :/
- The supply problems due to units stuck on a fleet that's out of supply Does seem replicable, not sure if that's what you're after though.

Let me know if you're interested in the save, can't post attachments in this thread.

 

[Surt]

I know there are reasons these units are out of supply, there are too many of them.

But it doesn't seem like Qingdao is providing any supplies to the system, 20 units are sent (2/port level on VH) but none of the adjacent provinces transports them further, so they are either lost, teleported or sent back to Japan.
They are not teleported to the supply depot as it has no throughput nor has any of its neighbours.
I would expect these supplies to wander west and join the supply system but none of its neighbours has any throughput.

The 20 supplies from Shanghai apparently wanders north up along the coast, up past the Quigdao peninsula and then west through Shanxi territory (puppet) to arrive at my northern most units in occ. china.

That the HQ next to Shanghai gets no supplies is WAD as some other units get the supplies.

Where the 20 supplies (seen on production screen and tooltip for province) from Qingdao goes is for me not easy to see, they might be teleportet to Shanghai as it got a throughput of 39.44 and no other source of supplies than port and backflow from net as there is no supplies in the deport.

My theory is that the supplies from Shanghai uses all tranport capacity west of Qingdao and thereby shuts it off the supply net. If the supply system had not decided to sent it north but instead to the closed units or another direction some of the Qingdao supplies might have come through (in a way I could observe) west.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3180/hoisupplyroute.jpg

Other strange things that might be WaD, the korean deport has nearly 100K supplies for its very few units.
The Guangzhou pocket's supply depot is in Macao (Portuguese, axis but neutral), there is a land connection to it.

 

[unmerged(54182)]

Only supply 'issue' i know of is the one in northern china. Even after an annex of the northern state most of the army just goes out of supply, and finally org so any contact forces a retreat. This i assume is one reason for the usual defeat of Japan by china.

This is mostly likely a restricted throughput problem (or not a problem if your not playing Japan). This would be ok if you had some control over where the few supplies that are trickling through go. If you could set unit supply draw manually it would be great, say 0% 25% 50% upto full supply. At least then you could supply the units you want to attack with while still allowing some units holding the line in key positions to have defensive supply rather than the randomness of unit supply that happens atm. For me the lack of control over restricted supply is more of a problem than the actual lack of supply.

Unless of course you can and i just never worked out how to do it. I know not quite what your after, but it seemed a decent place to mention it

 

[unmerged(55246)]

I am not interested in reports from people who do not understand how the logistics works, as that would just waste my and your time.

Yes units will be out of supply when some are not. Please don't report such issues if there are actual chokepoints that is blocking distribution of supplies.

OK . I understand how the supply works at least as far as it is described in the manual . What is not written in the manual , nobody but the developper knows . It is also not rocket science to put the map in supply mode and see where the supply goes and what the throughputs are .

So here is the deal how the supply network in my game is COMPLETELY broken .

1) I control the Transiberian (60% infrastructure) up to Kemerovo . On purpose I attack along the Transsiberian PRECISELY to get supply .
2) The front goes N to S from Tomsk to Youvi Feng . Everything East of this line is mine .
3) The front units in Tomsk (3 Div) , Asino (2 Div) , Orekhovo (1 Div) , Mariinsk (3 Div) , Berezovka (3 HQ) etc have been out of supply for SIX months .
Yes during SIX months sitting on the Transiberian and not getting a single supply (throughput 0 , supply 0) .
4) Quite stupidly they got fuel to overflowing (f.ex 860 local fuel in Tomsk) but 0 supply .
5) So there is NEITHER a problem with infrastructure NOR with choking points .

Now if getting no supply while sitting on a railroad during SIX and more months AND there are no chokepoint problems is considered working as expected then I don't know what is expected .

In any case this is clearly an example of a broken supply network and if you are interested , I can send you the save game if you tell me how and where .

 

[Johan]

In any case this is clearly an example of a broken supply network and if you are interested , I can send you the save game if you tell me how and where .

Zip it and post it in the bugreports forum as an attachement.

 

[jaxpac]

I wish there was a way to tell what is going on better with your supply. I mean you can see which units are supplied but a lot of the time there is no explanation for supply behavior. I think this mystery situation is what causes a lot of the supply bug reports. It may be working as intended, it may be a bug, or it may be that the rules need to be changed to allow for more realistic behavior. I know when I see a few units that never get supplied sitting next a province that has 100% supply I think "why don't they send some supplies to those starving units? What is going on?"

 

[Nukeitall]

I am not interested in reports from people who do not understand how the logistics works, as that would just waste my and your time.

Yes units will be out of supply when some are not. Please don't report such issues if there are actual chokepoints that is blocking distribution of supplies.

Well, I laughed.

 

[Johan]

I wish there was a way to tell what is going on better with your supply. I mean you can see which units are supplied but a lot of the time there is no explanation for supply behavior. I think this mystery situation is what causes a lot of the supply bug reports. It may be working as intended, it may be a bug, or it may be that the rules need to be changed to allow for more realistic behavior. I know when I see a few units that never get supplied sitting next a province that has 100% supply I think "why don't they send some supplies to those starving units? What is going on?"

Yeah, we need to sort out the information alot better.

 

[unmerged(91248)]

@ Johan: post #5.

Jaysis! Hardly encouraging there fella.

 

[shvR]

I think the problem with supplying Japanese troops in China is that the supply depot on the mainland is low INFRA and NOT a capital so it's throughput is terribly low, the supply is there, it just can't get out of that 1 single province quick enough.

Also it keeps moving around the depot as you conquer new land, once this happens the old supply pile (usually into 1000's, at least I think mine is!) moves from the old supply depot to the new, I haven't checked carefully but is supply still leaving this pile while this occurs? IE does the depot just move 1 province at a time and continue supplying as before (low INFRA and low throughput) or does it stop supplying until it reaches the new location? I guess the former but worth checking but I can't play tonight to check!

So summary is I have 1 supply point for all my mainland asian forces south of Manchukao (sp?) which is currently almost on the west coast of India (khandwa) with a supply draw demand of almost 500 and throughput of about 50, which is daft, there should be many more, large sized supply depots like this, to spread the demand around. Ah just checking the game my supply depot must have only just moved to khandwa as there is no supply there, however 10 provinces to the East, I have 10,000 supplies and 15,000 fuel in korba (must have been the old depot or near it) so the supply is there in abundance, it's just trapped in a single province...

 

[womble]

Yes units will be out of supply when some are not. Please don't report such issues if there are actual chokepoints that is blocking distribution of supplies.

Does a unit in Egypt no more than 3 provinces away from their source of supply (with 1 unit between them and the source, taking a direct route, and a few thousand supply in that province) going from full supply to unsupplied in a couple of days when three units nearby didn't suffer at all, count? It was on the other side of the Suez. There weren't more than a dozen brigades past it into the Levant/Iraq.