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kriegkopf

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Seriously, Ive read all the well-meaning, intelligent advice, Ive read all the complaints about this totally, unbelievably shitty supply system, Im using BlackIce mod with their excellent improvents(soviet rail system expansion), there are techs which are "supposed" to increase throughput and supplytax----and it dont make a damn bit of difference. I, for one am sick of it and I want my damn money back!!! Is it not possible to bombard P.I. and Stefan and whoever else has clout in this company, with hundreds of spammed complaints, so that they will, that they MUST react and fix all the broken, half-assed programming-code in this game? Wouldnt it be great if we had a choice to play the game with an option to either use the broken supply-system, or have some sort of simplified version, as was the case with the arcade-mode before TFH. Or maybe allow the BlackIce gentlemen (or some other commited group) access to the code, and they could fix it, if they so chose? Would it not be worth the effort, if WE, as a community, organized and tried to get these bums to do something about this? Really, Im usually a nice guy, but this shit irking me bigtime.
 
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Chromos

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You still can use the arcade mode with TFH. ;)
Just look below the difficult setting, there you can enable it.

And making complaints about experience with Mods is allways hard to track down for devs.
I'm sure the BI team can explain how you could beat their system. If their changes are to hard to play the system, they very likely will change/tweak them quickly again.
 

SirArthur

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Well, to be honest HoI3 has some very strange decisions compared to games like Eu or Victoria (like the inability to create units in India). And one of the bummers is the supply system. It is a great system if you play the game on normal without unhistorical approaches. But once it gets ahistorical it tends to collapse real fast. Up to this point where I do not know why resource supplys collaps once you annex Japan with UK or why the auto convoy system uses the shortest sea route, even if the land route to the supply harbor is through all of Europe and parts of Asia (and enough convoys are available). The supply system is real crap, even when you manage everything by hand, you still have so much problems, you just wish you could manually create huge supply depots. A lot of supply issues have been fixed with the expansions and in most cases it adds to the game instead of taking from it. But there are still some real game downers left in the supply system (and I'm talking TFH here).

The biggest example is when I import a converted Eu->Victoria->Hoi3 game to Hoi3. It is unplayable without arcade mode.(Sure it is a stress test, but it shows the problems of the system.)
 
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Kovax

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Last time I played GER, I actually had very little problem with supplying my army deep in the Soviet Union right up until they surrendered, but I had real difficulty keeping my handful of garrison divisions supplied in France for some unfathomable reason.

I once made the painful mistake of puppeting the rump remains of the Soviet Union, and the need to supply all of that land and all those divisions from just beyond Gorky and Stalingrad clear out to Vladivostok, overland via horse-carts from Berlin, crashed my supply stockpile from 98K down to zero in under a month. Equally stupid, my supply convoys to a few of the former UK bases in SE Asia had to ship from Murmansk, because the game decided that was the closest port as the crow flies. Problem is, crows don't fly over the Arctic Circle, so my convoys had to travel all the way around the Scandinavian peninsula, around Spain, past Gibraltar, and then through the Suez Canal, rather than shipping out of Yugoslavia and through the canal. I suppose the direct line of measurement was why Japan often attacked Finland in previous expansions (and was able to reach it), because it's not all that far away according to the same wonky logic.
 

ancientsion

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I agree with the OP.
"We" should be given access to the damn supply algorithm or function and the community modders, should be allows to fix it, if necesarry even as an unofficial patch.
It is, besides naval combat, my biggest complain. Its really big mess.
 

marxianTJ

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Oh the Japanese will still invade Finland - just get yourself into a war with them as the USSR and leave Murmansk open. Within a few weeks *some* malformation of the IJN will be there lol. I've had it happen twice (usually after dunking on Germany, I'll just let the AI decide where to garrison, and sometimes it decides Murmansk isn't worth the trouble).
 

Kovax

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Like it or not, Paradox is done with HOI3 and on to the sequel game. It's not a matter of "interest" in fixing, it's that fixing the bugs won't generate any new sales to pay for the effort, whereas making a new game will. The problem can't be cured with a minor patch, it needs a total overhaul of the supply system, which would require a significant development effort, followed by extensive testing before it can be released as any kind of official patch or expansion. That takes money. I feel that it should have been tackled in the last expansion, but since it wasn't, I've got no realistic expectations that they'll go back to working on the old game. What's done is done, and what's not done won't be.
 

yamato2cz

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Like it or not, Paradox is done with HOI3 and on to the sequel game. It's not a matter of "interest" in fixing, it's that fixing the bugs won't generate any new sales to pay for the effort, whereas making a new game will. The problem can't be cured with a minor patch, it needs a total overhaul of the supply system, which would require a significant development effort, followed by extensive testing before it can be released as any kind of official patch or expansion. That takes money. I feel that it should have been tackled in the last expansion, but since it wasn't, I've got no realistic expectations that they'll go back to working on the old game. What's done is done, and what's not done won't be.
well, opening code to modders would help. look at AI and how mods improved it, without any actuall modding of AI but rather only arguments it uses.
 

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Like it or not, Paradox is done with HOI3 and on to the sequel game. It's not a matter of "interest" in fixing, it's that fixing the bugs won't generate any new sales to pay for the effort, whereas making a new game will. The problem can't be cured with a minor patch, it needs a total overhaul of the supply system, which would require a significant development effort, followed by extensive testing before it can be released as any kind of official patch or expansion. That takes money. I feel that it should have been tackled in the last expansion, but since it wasn't, I've got no realistic expectations that they'll go back to working on the old game. What's done is done, and what's not done won't be.
Even besides the 3 expansions, there's still sprite packs they had on sale (some of which they even released after the last expansion). There's no excuse for outright abandoning it.
It was released a mess and it's still a mess.
 

ancientsion

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The game Xenonauts has opened source to competent modders. They mod/code the game and it gets released OFFICIALLY as a community edition patch.
THIS is how you tackle these problems in the modern age. Paradox cant be happy that people are disgruntled about a partly broken game.
Common sense would dictate IF the game would be "fixed", it would lead to more sales (minor factor) but it would lead to a HUGE image gain.

Then again, they do more likely love to sell DLCs for 5 Euro a piece.

Also, as a sidenote, i really dislike the EU4 way of "selling" a game and im pretty sure HoI 4 will be the next milestone in Generation DLC.
So, i believe we are better off sticking to HoI 3 instead of buying chunks of Hoi 4, one piece at a time.
 

SirArthur

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The thing that troubles me most is that it won't get fixed. Paradox always had issues with their game releases, but by the time the last Addon was released, games were always stable and enjoyable. Yet Hoi3 still plays like a game in need of a real good Addon to fix the awful AI and the not so working supply algorithm (because in both cases the province chain gets too long what basically leads to a breakdown).
 

kriegkopf

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The game Xenonauts has opened source to competent modders. They mod/code the game and it gets released OFFICIALLY as a community edition patch.
THIS is how you tackle these problems in the modern age. Paradox cant be happy that people are disgruntled about a partly broken game.
Common sense would dictate IF the game would be "fixed", it would lead to more sales (minor factor) but it would lead to a HUGE image gain.

Then again, they do more likely love to sell DLCs for 5 Euro a piece.

Also, as a sidenote, i really dislike the EU4 way of "selling" a game and im pretty sure HoI 4 will be the next milestone in Generation DLC.
So, i believe we are better off sticking to HoI 3 instead of buying chunks of Hoi 4, one piece at a time.

Well, first off id like to apologize if i offend anyone with my first post, that was not my intention- I was just angry and frustrated last night, as I had a breach in my frontline at Saratov, where I had one MOT Div., which I had not noticed was completely de-orged due to lack of supply, something I had not noticed while I was micro-managing air-supply to a third wave of encirclements north and south of that area, and the Ai had noticed this situation somehow, mysteriously, and had gathered all of what was left of their armored units in FOW, blasted through, and created quite a mess. Imagine that one 5-bat Div. not being able to supply in a city province, on either side of which I had air-drops going non-stop? Okay, moving on...

I want to thank all who have responded to this post, i expected that I would be largely ignored due to my hotheaded, somewhat offensive post. Really, sincerely, thank you all! I think I may have a workable solution to this problem, which I will illustrate further on, but first I would like to clarify my position, and the issues Im addressing. The first is an issue of principle, of professionalism, and the other is a matter of community effort. Here, I am not concerned with AI, or some of the other complaints members have made onwards from the release of HOI3. I am only concerned now with the supply-system. We all know AI will never be what we might hope, or perfect, that is not possible. This a game limitation that we accept, and we know the AI needs to have certain advantages. We play within that limitation, as in chess, we have the limitation of the chessboard, for example, or we have the limitation of the individual pieces and what they can and cannot do, and these limitations do not hinder us, we use them as part of our strategy. But the supply-system in HOI3 DOES hinder us, and we have no options but to use lame, unsportsmanlike workarounds to solve the problem. Ive seen it suggested that, well, you edit your save-game and add level-10 infra supply-routes, and while I know the member who posted this was well-intentioned, really, i mean, really, is this what we have to do, editing save-games, so that we dont go batshit crazy playing this game.? There is advice from some veterans, good advice on how to manage ways around the brokenness of this game, but what that boils down to is, here is a guy who figured out a way to "game the game," and if you play it like this, then you may succeed, however, if you dont play it that way you will fail. Now, I for one, want to play the game MY way, and I dont want to play in arcade-mode, so I can have an easy time of it. I want micro-management, I want difficulty, I want surprises---and I most definitely do not want to be forced into playing the game as someone else dictates. When I mentioned the Black Ice mod in the 1st post, I was not complaining about their work. In fact, those gentlemen have tried to address this problem to some beneficial degree where and how they were able, without access to source-code. And yes, they have tweaked partisan interference to a degree, but we have a choice at gamestart whether we want to go total crazy-partisan interference, or moderate partisan interference---WE HAVE A CHOICE!

Now, we have paid money for this game, a game which we largely enjoy despite the shortcomings, and so, PI is accountable, and should be held accountable by its customers. This is not some AlphaWars type operation, which only releases beta-versions, so it does not have to be accountable to the suckers who get drawn in and proceed to happily, unknowingly, to deplete their bank account until they realise theyve been duped. Money! We earn it, we pay it, and those that get it should be earning it as well!

Kovak, your point is taken, and you are not the first to say it---but I for one, dont accept it. Now, I certainly dont want to get myself into a situation where I am in jeopardy of getting banned from this forum---but, am I to accept that my money was, IMO, illspent, that I have received a faulty product, and I should just chin-up and move along? Cetainly not, if I believe there is way to remedy this problem, which I do. I understand there may be copyright/legal problems associated with allowing independents access to source-code, but we dont need all of it, just the chunk that concerns the supply-system, and I know there are members on this forum who can be trusted with this code, and who will try to improve it for the benefit of the HOI3 community. The Black Ice team, I think, would be excellent candidates for this venture, if they chose to commit to sort out the problem. All I'm pleading for is that PI manup and address this problem in a way that offers us some choices, in other words, an easy, moderate, or difficult supply-sytem that functions well.

I know two things for certain---if we ask for nothing, we get nothing; and, one voice in the complaint department MAY be heard but surely will not be listened to. But many voices in the complaint-department WILL be heard, and may listened to. With that in mind, my idea is as follows:
1. A high-level member ( a Dev perhaps) opens a stickied-thread, titled something like----"Dear PI, the HOI3 Community members request your atttention"
In this opening post we clarify, in a diplomatic, friendly fashion, exactly what we want, i.e, a functioning supply-system. Also, that if they are not willing to do this, that they allow some other person or group what is needed so they can do it.
2. Every member who is concerned with this issue adds a post to this thread, saying kindly---please sirs, would you help us.
3. We fund it ourselves if PI coders are involed, and if independents are involved, we donate to the cause.
4. Funding is accomplished by a donate button solely for this purpose, and only in this thread.
5. Anyone registered as having donated, gets the fix.

I have no problem with the idea of paying for a solution to this supply-system fix, I would joyously contribute. And, Im fairly certain there are other members who would do the same. Now i have just received a message that I have an ALERT, so im gonna go and see if Im in trouble.
 
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yamato2cz

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more probable is just asking paradox for release of source code and making it free for all to mess with it and distribute it. i dont think that they will appoint any number of resources to fixing HOI3 when 4 is on the way.
 
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kriegkopf

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Kovak said it, and IM afraid I agree with you, Yamato, but I think we need to get their attention in a big way, and the only way to do that, IMO, is with a thread in which everyone voices their opinion. Afterall, if they are done with 3, then it shouldnt be a big deal for them to release the code.
 

yamato2cz

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Kovak said it, and IM afraid I agree with you, Yamato, but I think we need to get their attention in a big way, and the only way to do that, IMO, is with a thread in which everyone voices their opinion. Afterall, if they are done with 3, then it shouldnt be a big deal for them to release the code.
you can try. make a petition of sorts. but it could also result in refusal. since fixed HOI3 would be bigger deal than measly HOI4. imagine. no stupid AI, supply issues, fixed naval combat. it could cause kind of uproar. and with that probable decreases in sales of HOI4
 

kriegkopf

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It is a very good point you make, hadnt thought about that. As I said above though, I am only concerned with the supply-system right now. The Ai will always be stupid to some greater or lesser degree. And anyway, dont you think the release of 4 will be similar to when 3 was released, and the majority of players and modders abondoned 2, and went direct to buy 3? I however, waited a couple years before I bought 3, to allow time for all the bugs to be worked out----ya know, the bugs we still have to play around.
 

SirArthur

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We all know AI will never be what we might hope, or perfect, that is not possible. This a game limitation that we accept, and we know the AI needs to have certain advantages. We play within that limitation, as in chess, we have the limitation of the chessboard, for example, or we have the limitation of the individual pieces and what they can and cannot do, and these limitations do not hinder us, we use them as part of our strategy. But the supply-system in HOI3 DOES hinder us, and we have no options but to use lame, unsportsmanlike workarounds to solve the problem.

I think your knowledge of the supply system and the AI is in no way related to the points other posters make here. I do not complain about infra on level 1,2 or 10. The throughput limit and throughput costs have nothing to do with the problems of the underlying algorithms. The chessboard is the perfect example, there is no reason at all to relocate entire army groups to fight 1-2 rebel divisions.

I also do not get what you mean by "unsportsmanlike workarounds to solve the problem" for the supply system. There is nothing to fix. I think your problems with the supply systems are on a beginner level.

I thought you would make a point concerning the issues, not about some simple beginner problems. Else I would not have posted in this threat at all. I apaologize for posting, it was simply the wrong topic.
 

kriegkopf

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Well, I never said anything about moving armygroups to fight partisans, first off, so I really dont know what youre talking about there, Sir... Perhaps you could point out where, exactly, i have "complained" about the infra-levels in provinces, 'cause im at a loss in that regard. And an example of a"unsportsmanlike workaround" would be, as i clearly elucidated above, editing a savegame to have level 10 infra for a supplychain to a frontline. Now, you can call that whatever you like, but to me its a cheat, and cheating is unsportsmanlike---no?
The point I am making about "the issues"-----THE ISSUE is the game was released with defects, as many are, the supply algorythm is not a well-functioning mechanism, everyone from begginer to veteran has expressed their vexation, and Im trying to organize a way for US to possibly get it fixed, because noone else has, including you, Sirwhatever, and whether Im on a "beginner level," or not has nothing to do with "the issue" I am addressing in this post. I am only drawing attention to this single problem, as opposed to the sum total, as this is a surer, more focused path for the community from which to initiate a response, IMO.
BTW, is having a garrison stationed in a province adjacent to moscow fully-supplied, while a garrison stationed in moscow is out-of-supply, a "beginner problem?"

Now, someone of the more unfriendly, snobbish variety may look at my low rank, and assume that I am a johnny-come-lately around these parts, and that I have nothing of value to contribute here, but you would be mistaken. Ive been the visiting the PI forum since the release of HOI2, i just didnt become a member because I was already a member of StonyRoad and DesignModProject, and it was too much of a hassle to go through the motions of joining the PI forum way back then. If you look in the UserMod... thread in this forum, you will find that I have contributed my artwork, in the form of realistic 3d map-icons, for the benefit of the community, not terribly difficult modding work, but on the other hand, terribly time-consuming work to, for instance, color each pixel individually so the finished work looks realistic on the map. So, concluding this rant, I dont appreciate the snide attitude, nor do I deserve it, and if you feel the way you do, then why even make the last post if not to simply be a cunt, Sir! You are certainly not being helpful to anyone, nor are you contributing anything of value, IMO.
 
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Being out of supply at a supply depot (Moscow) shouldn't even be possible. Maybe you just placed/strat redeployed them and didn't wait the 24 hours for their supply to refresh. A depot will always be in supply.
As far as infrastructure goes, most of the time it has no real effect on supply anyway. Unless you've got a huge army in a low infra location/supplied through a low infra bottleneck, the throughput will usually be more than enough to accommodate things. So there's no need to cheat anything.

That's one of the big issues with the supply system, though. Doesn't matter if it's a back road in Siberia in the middle of rasputista, or a Nazi autobahn in the middle of Germany, supply will always take 1 day to move through the province.
So if you're playing Russia and part of your army is out of supply due to a low infra bottleneck, that's a part of the game, which you're meant to correct through production.
But if you're in Germany and the game's routing your supply through a province with 10 throughput to supply your Eastern front, ignoring the 10 infra province right next to it because it only wants to take the shortest path it can, that's part of the problem.
Or if you rebase a plane and the supply system shits itself, re-routing the supply going to your fighting soldiers straight to the plane, then starting the day-per-province process of sending a new shipment out of your capital to supply those soldiers...that's the problem.
Or when you strategic redeploy a single division in occupied France and the supply for the Eastern Front does the exact same fucking thing...

A lot of this comes down to the ridiculous fact that the game manages supply from the capital. If they made every IC province into a depot, they could fix most of the problems. Or better yet, make infrastructure relevant by tying transport time to it. Or allow us to make our own depots. Or even just stop soldiers eating supply lines they pass through.
You can fiddle around with supply convoys to ensure specific provinces are kept in supply, but that's as far as user input goes, unless you're down for individually supplying each division with a transport plane.

Honestly, a petition won't go anywhere. The real way to voice your opinion is by speaking with your money. HoI4 is obviously going to be more of the "broken and dumbed down, but for just £20 we'll add some features from the previous games" experience.