Supply Stations: Strategic targets for interesting gameplay and breaking up doomstacks.

[Nussor]

I just had this idea whle waiting for my daily supply of caffeine. Supply stations are a common trope in science fiction, often to give the impression of strategic depth and dramatic stakes without actually adding any of those. But in Stellaris this could be very different, despite the obvious awkwardness of fitting a strategic dimension into a tactical one.

So ships need supplies. Stuff breaks or gets shot up, people die etc. So ships need supplies, either in the form of dedicated supply ships (which tend to get blown up or intercepted) or fixed stations, just like on Earth. If a fleet has no access to supplies, their fire rate, regeneration and shield power drops (even better: it drops more the further it is away from a supply source). Supply stations also repair ships closeby just like Starports do. They provide an optimal range equal to that of one FTL jump for Warp and Wormhole. Hyperlanes would need a fixed radius that is increased with each FTL tech researched.

Supply stations can be:
- mounted on a Starport, the most basic way to do this.
- added to defensive stations, which would make them a lot more useful (even the smaller ones)
- constructed around any planet, star or asteroid as a new type of station for the constructor.

What this would do:
- Make defensive play a bit more viable and interesting, as the attacker often has no supply in your borders. Equal
fleets would favour the defender. An outgunned defender could get on an even footing or commence to limited guerilla warfare, if the attacker is not paying attention to their supply.
- Give a little strategical and tactical depth that needs to be taken into account. Right now, aside from fighting the enemie's doomstack headson, the only interesting targets are their Starports.
- Give a reason not to go doomstack all of the time. Supply raids could be a thing, especially if the empires are big or a great distance apart.

 

[Philthy]

@Nussor

In general I like this idea. Your reasons are compelling. I'd say additionally, this would give you more reason to raid, if these had to be attached to defensive stations.

What about this? What if this Fleet Supply resource- instead of being abstracted by a mineral/energy income for fleet maintenance - was detracted monthly from that income into a new resource. Then you also don't have this weird dip in energy unless you run out of fleet supply.

So fleet supply is some formula of energy + minerals. It gets used slowly when ships are docked, unless you mothball part of your fleet, and it gets used much more quickly when they're out and about flying around. But if you have enough supply depots, you can still be positive on fleet supply income, so long as you have the minerals and energy to support it.


Alternatively, there could be a simple flag "in supply range" "poor supply" "out of supply range" for fleets and these depots could be used as mineral/energy storage capacity, whereas the normal cap would be greatly reduced. Then if one of these got destroyed, you'd be effectively lowering your enemies cap of resources.

Star ports would have a reasonable sized cap, planets would have a cap, etc. but the real cap would come from dedicated supply depot space structures, ultimately allowing the megastructure - Galactic Supply Commissariat - a massive warehouse of supplies that can supply a huge region of the galaxy and store a huge number of resources. it would be the Fort Knox of your empire.

Just a few more thoughts.

 

[Nussor]

I never thought about doing anything energy and mineral resources, although I would welcome a sort of plunder mechanic as a secondary wargoal and entertainment for space pirates. Really have no opinion about that.
But supply has to be directly related to an empire's ability to wage war in addition to anything else. Otherwise the mechanic would lose its gravity. Hence my suggestion for it to affect fire rate etc.

 

[Hark]

We already track a butt-ton of variables for ships. Would one more really hurt. Just give each ship a supply value that drops when away from friendly ports. Could add supply ships to haul extra supplies for the fleet, or cargo bays to add extra supply to the ships at the expense of other upgrades. I takes time to refill supplies on a ship.

This should produce a more natural and dynamic experience where you can run supply ships back and forth from the front. Or rotate fleets back from the front for repair refit and resupply. Add in the ability to raid planets for supplies and there would be incentive to not just bombard a planet from orbit, maybe even add in a space pirate playstyle.

 

[LeibSSolmai]

The suggestion has a lot of holes, the most simple way to supply your fleets would be to spam military stations like hell on the enemy border, so everyone would spam a lot stations at the beginning of the war and ignore the supply. Also it would be impossible to fight an endgame crisis that spawns on the other end of the galaxy.

And you didn´t make a single point how it would "break up doomstacks".

 

[Nussor]

I see no hole. Spamming supply stations costs resources and time, provides lots of squishy targets (and probably loot), and has limited range. Obviously, smaller distances wouldn't warrant any dedicated supply stations, but that's just sensible.

That's how it would break up doomstacks: A single doomstack can only attack one target at a time. A mobile force can take out more secondary targets at a time, as long as it avoids a direct engagement.

The only problem with breaking up doomstacks right now is that the AI seems unable to understand when it's outnumbered and needs to combine its forces or retreat.

 

[Philthy]

I would tend to agree that this would help break up doomstacks. Your own stockpiles would be at risk and exposed if you don't defend. I think you're right that supply stations wouldn't be overcomplicated. You wouldn't want to make too many and you wouldn't want to make too few. There would be a good number that depended on your objectives at the time.

 

[methegrate]

I agree with this idea completely, but I'd add two things:

- Supply stations should be worth war score. That would make them an even better target and would reduce the urge to spam them.

- They should be required for travel inside the enemy borders.

The latter is an idea I posted to suggestions a little while ago, but I would make them work like this:

All ships have their normal range that they can travel in friendly/neutral/etc. territory. In hostile territory they can only travel within the radius of a supply station. So basically you'd see like a red dash circle on the map, similar to the wormhole station radius except it just marks the operating zone for your fleet. And unlike a wormhole station you don't have to keep going back to it, it's just a movement zone. Past that barrier ships operate at like 25% capacity; so there's the possibility of a daring raid deep inside enemy space, but it's one hell of a gamble.

You can (in fact have to) build supply stations inside enemy territory as forward operating bases to push the offensive, but damn well better protect them.

Personally I like this because it's simple. No going back and forth, no juggling percentages, no micromanagement. You have one clear line on the map and past it your fleet is crippled. The idea that well protected bases can also give a bonus, or that a fleet fresh from supply might be even better equipped is also great.

And it adds an extra target to the map. You can effectively shut down an enemy's offensive if you can take out his supply base, creating a viable target in addition to his fleet.

 

[Nussor]

All ships have their normal range that they can travel in friendly/neutral/etc. territory. In hostile territory they can only travel within the radius of a supply station.

This would contradict the purpose of such stations entirely. Supply stations should make mobility worth something. In your scenario, supply stations would negate any mobility focus by creating hard choke points, much like hyperlanes do now. One would need to protect such a supply station with the biggest available doomstack, the weaker empire would be forced to play only defensively as it could never hold such a choke point inside the enemy's territory and the offensive player would be slowed down to the speed of a snail.

 

[methegrate]

This would contradict the purpose of such stations entirely. Supply stations should make mobility worth something. In your scenario, supply stations would negate any mobility focus by creating hard choke points, much like hyperlanes do now. One would need to protect such a supply station with the biggest available doomstack, the weaker empire would be forced to play only defensively as it could never hold such a choke point inside the enemy's territory and the offensive player would be slowed down to the speed of a snail.

I might have been unclear... I didn't mean that you keep having to go back and forth to the supply station. Just that it creates a movement radius.

Otherwise, to a certain degree that's what happens whenever you have multiple critical targets. The player has to split some ships up to defend them. That's the point.

A weaker player would have a bigger advantage when playing defensively, because the offensive player absolutely would have to split up his ships between attacking planets and protecting forward bases. An offensive player would need more strength when launching an attack, but would also have the supply radius projected from bases in his own borders. (And yes, a weaker player will play more defensively... because he's weaker.)

But again, that's the point of adding critical infrastructure. You need to plan for its defense.

This might not be the best solution, but we really need things that are differences of kind, not degree. Something that gives a moderate stat bump won't actually change gameplay. I won't raid bonus-granting supply stations because my solution to a 10% bonus is to bring 10% more ships (ie: my plan anyway). Ultimately my best tactic is still to hit your hammer with a bigger hammer and move on.

Something that I absolutely need to fight the war, though, does become a focus point specifically because it changes how we think about doomstacks and mobility. An offensive player needs to figure out a way to protect those assets and wage war, and a defensive player can try to target those installations before losing all his planets.

 

[laptor]

I think something like supply / trade - stations hold great potential for the game to benefit! I also thought about replacing or combining them with the current outposts would feel nice!