Supply costs shouldn't double during war-time

[kingsword]

I have been thinking about it for a long time but had hoped military only needing war supplies in HOD might have solved it. Appears not. Supply costs increasing to double during wartime really messes up wars. What happens now is that peace-time maintenance is already too high so everybody keeps it at near-zero and demand, thus price and costs skyrocket during war-time. 1872 daily canned food demand & real consumption was 30. 6 months into a crisis war, (Germany, France, Russia, Austria, Italy, everyone else at peace except USA & CSA) demand jumped to 250 and nobody could keep up with it to produce near anywhere enough. I had been subsidizing canned food and the like with #1 world production in war materials and I still couldn't keep up with 300 brigades, God knows what France was giving their 250 brigades to eat.

Maintenance is enough to cripple the economy unless you have been hoarding millions but nobody could produce new troops either. So it's all up to mobilization troops to decide the war. Either military equipment factories like artillery, steamers and canned food should be able to upgrade like 10 times faster or the change of consumption shouldn't be ten-fold. Current system totally screws up wars.

 

[Cymsdale]

I think the military goods supply/demand swings are a feature. It's why when I have a strong economy I specifically *don't* lower my peace-time maintenance, because I want the military good economy to remain strong an viable for future endeavors.

Managing the economy shouldn't only be about "what makes me the most money". Long-term planning is important.

 

[ifnt]

IMO it is there to simulate demand shocks. Prices of ammunition wouldn't stay the same when there is a war.

 

[kingsword]

I'm aware of the reasoning but it's not really working with such a tight economy system, income and costs are already highly restrictive since vanilla V2. Technology already amplifies the costs, %20 per invention and tech level while you get %2 output bonus from industry techs. #1 world economy is double the amount in the red than it's green in peace while the citizens are mostly on life needs. Wars were already rare but it has come to the point fighting a war is much more trouble than it, so AI will stay passive unless the player intentionally stirs it up, that's how the crisis war started.

 

[EUnderhill]

I'm aware of the reasoning but it's not really working with such a tight economy system, income and costs are already highly restrictive since vanilla V2. Technology already amplifies the costs, %20 per invention and tech level while you get %2 output bonus from industry techs. #1 world economy is double the amount in the red than it's green in peace while the citizens are mostly on life needs. Wars were already rare but it has come to the point fighting a war is much more trouble than it, so AI will stay passive unless the player intentionally stirs it up, that's how the crisis war started.

If it helps dial down the wars then it is working, IMO.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

I hated how in the past, you had more money than you could possibly need. I prefer a little more challenge.

If it helps dial down the wars then it is working, IMO.

That too.

 

[kingsword]

Dial down? They're more like extinct, unless I start them.

 

[Chamboozer]

This was not exactly an era of frequent GP wars, so the fewer big wars the better. In my experience wars between secondary powers are more common as well. Though I agree that military factories should be able to expand at a greater speed to represent a shift to wartime industry. Presumably they'd downsize again after the war when they're no longer profitable.

 

[EUnderhill]

Dial down? They're more like extinct, unless I start them.

Morocco still getting sliced and diced way too early way too much. At least with Mozambique being released Oman is getting a chance to survive.

 

[Havok9120]

Dial down? They're more like extinct, unless I start them.

That is not my experience.

I also agree with the people above who consider it a positive or a feature. Wars needed to be rarer. The system also needed some kind of simulation of price shocks in war-related goods and wartime inflation. It may need some tweaking but making goods rarer has helped a lot of problems with the Vanilla system.

 

[Cymsdale]

This was not exactly an era of frequent GP wars, so the fewer big wars the better. In my experience wars between secondary powers are more common as well. Though I agree that military factories should be able to expand at a greater speed to represent a shift to wartime industry. Presumably they'd downsize again after the war when they're no longer profitable.

Honestly, I'd like it if factories could expand faster in general. I think techs should reduce the time it takes to expand/build a factory so that in late game a multi-level factory can spring up a lot faster from nothing.

 

[Havok9120]

Honestly, I'd like it if factories could expand faster in general. I think techs should reduce the time it takes to expand/build a factory so that in late game a multi-level factory can spring up a lot faster from nothing.

Yeah, this needs to be looked into. I've had huge factory size bottlenecks when I unify Italy/Scandinavia/Germany. There will be 40-50K factory workers, 2 factories (which I guess are turned back into level 1 following unification/conquest?) and it takes years and years to get the factory levels up to the point where unemployment can be gotten under control.

 

[Tartan Spartan]

I have been thinking about it for a long time but had hoped military only needing war supplies in HOD might have solved it. Appears not. Supply costs increasing to double during wartime really messes up wars. What happens now is that peace-time maintenance is already too high so everybody keeps it at near-zero and demand, thus price and costs skyrocket during war-time...

Can the military goods slider be modded like the navy slider to set minimum upkeep - 25% if you are a pacifist --> 100% for jingoistic govts - would make armies smaller but demand would only double not increase by a factor of 10

 

[kingsword]

I don't think smaller armies are the way to go. Countries were duking it out with hundreds of thousands of troops by then and up to millions by 1915. There are more provinces since V1 to keep a defensive line yet you cannot afford the same amount of troops like in vanilla V2.

Or maybe cut down the supply cost increases of new tech levels. Armies should get bigger with time after all.

 

[Cymsdale]

Or maybe cut down the supply cost increases of new tech levels. Armies should get bigger with time after all.

The supply cost increases are meant to represent how a higher-tech army is going to require more resources to supply than a lower tech one. If you remove this, all it will accomplish is causing military goods to be over-supplied in the late game (leading to military goods becoming terrible profit-wise).

 

[kingsword]

Supply materials don't get anywhere near the same benefit of output bonus from technology. Supply costs are at 400% increase by 1870. +1 def? %20. +1 att? %20. Really miniscule changes all increase the same amount, while you cannot really increase the output because especially canned food (artillery and steamers also to a lesser degree) is a subsidizing hole during peace time that nobody buys, that's of course assuming you can subsidize to begin with. If you can't, well, enjoy checking out the maintenance slider to notice your army gets like a quarter of what it needs. Can you really claim that's working as intended? I very much doubt so.

Not to mention that all war materials need immense amounts of iron, so even if somehow you have an adequate war industry ready for the task, world completely runs out of iron when production shifts because you can't even make a can of beef without it.

 

[El Jojo]

There's not enough elasticity in production. Countries were able to expand ammo production very quickly. Just compare war supplies prod between 1913 and 1916 in Germany and France. It's impossible in-game to get this kind of economic mobilization. You end up with ammoless starving armies which are still reasonnably fighting.
I'd love if a great war could allow some economic mobilization, converting a part of your production in military goods.

 

[KingCarrot]

What I would love to do is to actually have a setting in the trade screen (or wherever) that allows me to stock up regularly on a product. As it is now if I want to build up a stock of Canned Food, my purchase order of 1000 units causes the demand to sky-rocket and prices to soar.
I'd much rather be able to spread out the purchasing, so instead of saying, buy 1000 units, I'd say buy 20 units a day, no matter what. That way I can prepare for a war, without crippling my budget and causing "fake" high prices. Then you can also modify it depending on how often you expect to be at war. (Like stock up regularly on 10% daily war expectations and then you can have war for 1 month out of every 10 months).

 

[grumphie]

another thing thats desperatly needed in general, especially for wars: an import chart. going to war with brittain is all nice and everything, but if brittian holds half the market of artillery and i personally dont produce anything, im going to wait with that war untill later.

more on the subject though, im persoanlly all for more viable war industries and less supply costs. how about tying it to ideal? pacifism locks slider at 25%, anti millitary at 50%, pro millitary 25-75, jingoism 50-100, war increases costs 50%
also, things as canned food and all could be added to the population need to ensure a certain base demand, but when war is declared they all go to the millitary, meaning they are more viable.

 

[1alexey]

IMO, it is caused by the fact that countries just have too big piece time armies sitting at very low maintenance.

Personally, i tend to not decrese my military funding if i can, It creates extra demand for industrial goods, and it makes sure i can fight wars just fine, since my military supplies become perfectly adequate, as my army suffers cassualties, artisans switch to military goods and such.


With factories, it is longstanding terrible feature of Victoria, that you can not build multiple levels of factories at thesame time.