Supply and land routes!?!?

[Jorgen_CAB]

There is a big problem with how supplies are forced to move over land when moving them over the sea are much more efficient. Also, there might be some balance issues to work out.

There are allot of countries that will feel this pain. One country that will feel this from day one are Canada. They can't even supply two simple destroyer flotillas on their east coast?!?!

Countries such as Japan will also feel this if they are lucky and win territories in China and India. All supplies will be forced to move over land when using convoys would be way more efficient. This is a really game breaking flaw once you expand.
As Japan I tried and edited the save game and gave some land to Siam (I think it was) and close the corridor between China and India, suddenly I had no trouble sending supplies to my troops in India, since they came by ship?!?!?!

The same with Canada, I edited the save file and gave some territories to the US to divide the country in two halves... viola... suddenly I could feed almost any number of troops there!??!

The same will happen to any country that link up landmasses with their capital. Please make convoy routes part of the supply network. If moving the supplies from one port to another are more efficient then it must be used, even if it is not from the home continent (island) to somewhere else. Supplies should be able to move from Berlin down through Italy and an Italian port to Africa if Germany has territories there. Germany should be able to ship supplies from Kiel to Leningrad by convoy for example, that will be much more efficient and realistic as well. Or from any port in Germany to the Baltic port or Finnish ports.
If Germany get a land strip that connect with Germany all the way to Norway as one example, the supply line will suddenly break down, all armies in Norway will seize to function, period!!!!

It is also absurd that you can't ship supplies and fuel through your puppet or allies. Granted that their use of the throughput in provinces will be prioritized for sure, but it should be possible nevertheless.

Please look over the supply system, right now there is a big imbalance that needs to be corrected.

 

[unmerged(150331)]

I suppose I should experiment with this to see what happens, but:

Is this an AI issue only? If you take over the convoys from the AI, can you define a supply convoy between two ports even if there is an existing land route between them?

If you can define such a convoy, does it work? Or does it not transport supplies because there is an alternate land route (even if that route is inadequate to meet demand)?

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Convoys are created by the AI automatically, there is nothing that you can do manually to create them. Not that I know of anyway.

 

[GLENN]

You need to build up your infrastructure.

And you can adjust your convoys in the production menu..
Book mark this:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=424553

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

No... I don't think that you get what I'm asking about. I looked in that thread and I did not find an answer to my question at all. I have no beef with how throughput in a province work, I rather think that is easy to understand and is a very sound and good idea.
The problem are that supplies DO NOT use convoys to travel if it is more efficient.

If land are the only option... there is no convoy route... it is impossible to change it. Or to create one manually...

Why would the Japanese send supplies to northern China and the send them by donkeys through the mountains and jungles all the way to India when they can just sail there with their big fat ships?!?!

Why would Germany stop sending supplies to Norway by boat because there is a land connection around the Baltic, through Finland and up through the badlands of northern Scandinavia down through the mountains of Norway to Oslo. When they can just send them by ship from Kiel to Oslo and it will only take a couple of days?
One day the supplies can travel by ship for maybe 300-400km, the next they have to go by truck and train all around Scandinavia for maybe 3000+km. that is just crazy.

Should Canada really not be able to support two Garrisons on the West coast from the start of the game without building infrastructure, that is just crazy as well...

Building infrastructure over shipping by sea are not realistic in the least if you have the option... why are we still shipping goods by merchant ships even today?

If there are no ports between two points then fine... you have to do the land route. If there are ports that can ship the supplies it must be included into the supply system. Or else you will find some pretty ridiculous situations like this. The game should try and send supplies the land route, but if it is not enough it must also consider the use of ports to do so as well. There already are a system for shipping by convoy, why not include it into the general supply route logic as well?

As the supply system works right now it is pretty much suicide to your supply network to create land bridges between large chunks of land. Unless I have seriously missed something important.

 

[unmerged(150331)]

I suppose I should experiment with this to see what happens, but:

Is this an AI issue only? If you take over the convoys from the AI, can you define a supply convoy between two ports even if there is an existing land route between them?

If you can define such a convoy, does it work? Or does it not transport supplies because there is an alternate land route (even if that route is inadequate to meet demand)?

OK, I tried it out myself, and there is a problem. Even when you manually define a supply convoy, the game "helps you out" in the way it constructs the lists of ports for you to choose from for source and destination. For source ports it offers any port with a land connection to your capital. For destination, it excludes any port with a land connection to your capital.

This would have to be changed to support what you're asking about. Then the supply draw system might need some fixing for it to properly draw through a convoy when an alternate land route is available. Plus then the AI would have to be updated to properly use this feature under AI control.

This really should be available, so although technically not a bug since it's WAD, it's a significant design flaw.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

The big problem are that the game only support "ONE" i repeat "ONE" supply depot per landmass.

If you as Germany conquer, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, the middle East and India you will need to transport all your supplies from Berlin to India by "TRUCK".

If Italy conquer the same countries and get a land border to Africa, it to will have to transport all their supplies through the land rout, all the way from Rome down through Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Middle East, Egypt and then their colonial areas in northern Africa.

In my opinion each and every port should be or become a supply depot, even those in the home country. Supplies should allays travel the easiest way to these ports. Demand will be asked by units and shipped either by sea to other ports or directly to the units depending on which way will be the most efficient. A unit should be able to get their supply from multiple supply depot at the same time. Supply should be able to flow from several direction.

When Germany conquer Leningrad, supply should begin flowing from German northern ports to that location and begin supplying troops in that vicinity.

I'm really sorry, but the supply system are only designed to function with colonial power style and direct land routes from land with no ports. It works to some extent for Germany fighting the Russians, but it certainly is not very optimal. Germany should be able to send supplies from Germany to Russian ports to help supply their armies. This would also make naval power even more important in the game as well, as it were historically.

Japan will seriously have a hard time with the current system on the mainland, that's for sure. Is it in the slightest realistic, no it is not...

 

[Targor]

That's something I would have already wished for HoI II and hoped to get in HoI III, but as you pointed out, no way. I mean, why should (just as an example, even if you mentioned enough) Italy bring his suplly over the land route to Tripolis, when it is conquered by them, instead of shipping it from Sicilia or somewhere?

 

[WWIINERD]

Yeah I just started playing the game and I have been playing as Australia just to get a handle on things. I can't supply a garrison on the west side of Australia without building infrastructure accross the continent. This makes absolutely no sense when I should be able to ship supplies along the southern coast. It bothered me but now that I am reading this thread, I am in agreement that this is a game-breaker if there isn't something done about this. Unless I am missing something, this is a terrible design flaw.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I really don't understand that the developers didn't realize that if they did not allow supplies to be shipped over using land routs they would get a problem?

I'm pretty sure that they can change the current system and make every port province into some form of interim supply center in a future patch or expansion.

In my opinion this should have been designed into the game from the beginning.

There is no way that Italy would ever supply troops in North Africa by moving them on land from Rome, ever!

Or for Australia to move supplies through their inhospitable very "LARGE" country to feed their troops on the other side. It is easier for Australia to supply their troops in a naval landing in Japan than on their own continent.

The same logic applies to Canada who can't supply shit on their own West coast because they don't know how to ship stuff there, but they can supply their troops in Africa after they invade N.Spain's colonies?!?

I think that the list could go on, and on...

 

[WWIINERD]

Yeah you have done a good job explaining why this must be resolved. I have seen all of the posts where people are explaining all of the factors that influence supply and I think that there are some really great concepts built into the system, but they are not addressing this core issue that you have described. I will be watching to see if this gets fixed but until it does, I can't see investing tons of time in the game just to run into the problems that you have described here.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Also, I'm not sure about this. But I don't think that there is any supply efficiency bonus for core provinces. I really think that every country should get at least a 25-50% efficiency bonus sending supplies through their own core provinces.

 

[WWIINERD]

Does anyone know if someone with PI is aware that they have a major problem here? Do they have a plan to address this supply/convoy issue that was quite aptly described by the OP? Not trying to be negative or a pest but I plan to keep bumping this until I find out the answers to these questions.

 

[Grimlin]

Also, I'm not sure about this. But I don't think that there is any supply efficiency bonus for core provinces. I really think that every country should get at least a 25-50% efficiency bonus sending supplies through their own core provinces.

And to have a malus for sending supplies through occupied or non-core provinces, modified by Partisans? Thats somehow comparable to HOI2.

Does anyone know if someone with PI is aware that they have a major problem here? Do they have a plan to address this supply/convoy issue that was quite aptly described by the OP? Not trying to be negative or a pest but I plan to keep bumping this until I find out the answers to these questions.

Post it in the Bug Reports

 

[dertechie]

You need to be able to trace supply through an allies territory. The current system (trade supplies to ally, ally supplies from own capital) works if you're on the same landmass only. For example, France can supply large armies fine in Belgium, if you beat the Germans to Brussels. However, when you start to liberate Dutch ports, the supplies get shipped in from the East Indies. Yeah. Paris, to Marseille, to Borneo, to Den Haag. At least we don't have to pay fuel for shipping. I'd rather call Den Haag French and ship around Belgium than that, but we can't do that either. I was invading Italy anyway, but that observation cemented the decision to hit Germany through the Alps.

 

[unmerged(41044)]

A couple of bumps for previous suggestions of improvements of the supply model:

1. If the AI can't do it, it makes it easier to beat. So no user defined stockpiles or convoys.

2. Supply should flow capital to Theater to Army Group to Army HQ and down to divisions.

For this discussion I would add the following:

3. Each port should have a minimum stockpile of supply/fuel (~100). HQ's should look for the nearest stockpile to draw from (superior HQ or port). If a port stockpile goes to zero it should generate a convoy (if any are available) for double the previous value. If the port stockpile subsequently reaches double that value, the convoy gets halved, or canceled once it reaches the minimum again. Test the stockpile level every (convoy length) +1 days.

Anyone see anything wrong with my pseudocode? ;-) The aim would be to have something that works for both Normandy and the British in India/Burma.

 

[WWIINERD]

Great suggestions Horza. I hope that they do something a lot like this. I also like the idea of the supply bonus through the cores.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

A couple of bumps for previous suggestions of improvements of the supply model:

1. If the AI can't do it, it makes it easier to beat. So no user defined stockpiles or convoys.

2. Supply should flow capital to Theater to Army Group to Army HQ and down to divisions.

For this discussion I would add the following:

3. Each port should have a minimum stockpile of supply/fuel (~100). HQ's should look for the nearest stockpile to draw from (superior HQ or port). If a port stockpile goes to zero it should generate a convoy (if any are available) for double the previous value. If the port stockpile subsequently reaches double that value, the convoy gets halved, or canceled once it reaches the minimum again. Test the stockpile level every (convoy length) +1 days.

Anyone see anything wrong with my pseudocode? ;-) The aim would be to have something that works for both Normandy and the British in India/Burma.

I would certainly be in favor of something like that. Ports should stockpile a number of supplies and fuel based on its size and the demand from troops or HQs in the vicinity. Ports should be able to stockpile whether it has a land route to the capital or not. There should not be any supply depots generated by the AI other than the capital or its replacement when captured.

Supplies always go through the HQ and the HQ should raise the supply efficiency in the province they are located in and all adjacent provinces to some extent unless they are moving. Each HQ should perhaps provide 10 days of extra supplies and each division about ten days of extra supply. So in effect the Army Group try to keep all forces beneath them at ten days extra supplies then you go down the chain in the same way. In total each division would have about 40 total days of supplies quite nearby given the whole chain.
If you have less HQ in the chain it means less extra supplies for big offensives. Troops that are cut of from their superior HQs will begin feeling the pain rather quickly, unless one corp is cut of with its Army HQ in the pocket, then they might have an excess of supplies...

Each nation always supply their own troops unless they are given away as expeditionary forces. Then they are supplied by the nation they are given to. Supplies can be traced through allied territory.

It is much more realistic for US forces to be supplied by US supply convoys from the US mainland in France than France supplying them locally. If they want France to supply them they need to hand them over as expeditionary forces.

This system should work for all theaters. At least I think so.

 

[unmerged(149051)]

I wish that the supplies were created on the map (so at the industries) this is I think a much more realistic representation then the current system

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I wish that the supplies were created on the map (so at the industries) this is I think a much more realistic representation then the current system

I wouldn't mind this, but in all fairness it might slow down the system a little to much if it needs to calculate this as well. But if it was possible and keep the game moving at the same pace, then I'm all for it.