Suply system for fleet (EU4 like)

[alxgvr]

Imagine, that energy inside ship reactors is taken from surrounding space/local star. That means every star system has its own limit of energy avalible to drain buy your fleet. Every ship has its own consuption need (depending on ship class and weapon set). So, total energy fleet consume = sum of all ships energy consumption in this fleet. If fleet consumption is highter then system energy limit = fleet gain penalties for speed, shields regeneration and firerate. Penalties level depends on (system energy limit - fleet consumption) number. Highter number - greater penalties.

It is simple obvious suply system, similar to EU4 (star system= province). Implementation of such system will solve "doomstack" problem for late game, @Wiz is trying to solve.

You can build as big fleet as you want, but whats the point, if you can not move it deep inside enemy territory? ( it will be beated by smaller fleet which is not suffer for suply penalties). You will plan your expansion carefully, deviding big fleet on number of smaller fleets for movement, and will gather them together to take a fight in apropriate, big enough star system. Just like real army managment in Napoleonic era...

 

[Elothan]

I think Stellaris is going for massive/epic spacebattles, altleast to some extent. I think EU style works in EU, but I hope it is not implementere in Stellaris, as i think it will turn it into a real slog. Works in EU due to battles beeing largely on a "flat" surface, and historical basis. I feel like defining a support limit to each planet/system would take a lot of the randomness away.

I would have given a more indepth reason why I belive Stellaris is not the game for it, but beeing on a phone with a wacky auto Correct is a killer. I just think EU style is not a good for for the game.

If anything, i would rather have a system related to leaders and such.

 

[alxgvr]

How to deal with "doomstacks" than?
Lower limit could be set for relatively big fleets: 20k

 

[Elothan]

I dont have a exact solution, I would just hate to see THAT system implemented in this game. I want larger battles, not a crapton of smaller skirmishes where every movement and incurtion need to be pondered. For that I have EU. I will agreenthat doomstacks now arena bit redicolus, but atleast they fit better thematicly om my opinion. I would rather see more emphasis om the planetary conquest in relation to warscore.

 

[alxgvr]

What fleet for you enough "large"?

 

[Elothan]

Again, I dont have the anwers. I dont know the solution. I just know what I DONT want. If I wanted EU in space, I'd find a mod.
I do trust PDX to fine a nice compromise a bit down the road, so I am not overly worried.

 

[alxgvr]

One thing I don't like about Stellaris - no fleet cap. Bigger empire - more spaceports it has, stronger fleet.
There should be some absolute restrictions player can not change.

You can sill have large battles with supply system. You can choose big enough system for that, or you can fight in small system (you will have some penalties for stats, but if you OP have large fleet too, you both will have that penalties, so you will not realy notice).

Another thing I don't realy like... Stellaris have no "landscape". Just plain space. EU4, Victoria have map with mountains, rivers, islands, seas... In stellaris you able to move in any destinations without natural obstructions. It feels like "emptiness"...
Supply will bring to Stellaris map kind of "relief". Space is not plain. It have space-time texture - big mass objects like Planets, Stars or Black Holes bend space. But you can not reproduce it in game. Game has 2D map. It feels empy and boring. Suply system can fix it.

 

[GloatingSwine]

One thing I don't like about Stellaris - no fleet cap. Bigger empire - more spaceports it has, stronger fleet.
There should be some absolute restrictions player can not change.

You can sill have large battles with supply system. You can choose big enough system for that, or you can fight in small system (you will have some penalties for stats, but if you OP have large fleet too, you both will have that penalties, so you will not realy notice).

Another thing I don't realy like... Stellaris have no "landscape". Just plain space. EU4, Victoria have map with mountains, rivers, islands, seas... In stellaris you able to move in any destinations without natural obstructions. It feels like "emptiness"...
Supply will bring to Stellaris map kind of "relief". Space is not plain. It have space-time texture - big mass objects like Planets, Stars or Black Holes bend space. But you can not reproduce it in game. Game has 2D map. It feels empy and boring. Suply system can fix it.

Bigger epire having a bigger fleet isn't really bad, but it shouldn't only come from bigness. A smaller empire with a stronger economy should be able to build more than it currently can with the spaceport limit currently.

That doesn't address doom stacks though because that's about amount of fleet in one place. I agree that some kind of supply system is a good way to address over concentration.

The benefit of splitting up fleets is that fleet composition becomes more relevant when you can't just doom stack for victory.

 

[alxgvr]

What do we love about war? Tactics. Stellaris doesn't have it. Build as many you can, gather in one stack, and kill everyone. Retro RTS approach. Supply system will bring some tactics ellements to the game. Tactics - is when you can defeat stronger enemy with smart maneuvers.

I want kind of 1812 Napoleon campaign against Russia in space )

 

[GloatingSwine]

Some other things to consider, based on the Lost Fleet series (recommended if you like spaceship shootbang stories). In that the fleet has specific supply ships that manufacture their munitions and fuel. That offers a way to add strategic requirements for the player and a weakness for large fleets far from home. Sword of the Stars has something similar in its tanker ships.

 

[Elothan]

Still dont agree on a per system suply limit, got no issue with a suppy system in general. But Napoleonic war is not something to mimic om Stellaris imho. More grand battles, and tactics per battle instead of gazillions of smaller ones.

 

[alxgvr]

Napoleon was first who devided Army on Corps. Self-sufficient military units. He moved them different roads (more maneuverability, less supply), and merged for Grand Battle.

 

[Aotrs Commander]

Supply is definitely missing. I don't personally think that an EUIV "terrain" style supply system is the answer. Rather, what I think would be better is one where the ship calls for a certain amount of supply per month, which is supplied by the empire (tracing the shortest route from a vessel to the nearest planet/starbase/suppy depot - which is interupted by the presense of enemy starships). Supply sources would only supply so much, so if a fleet used all from the nearest, the rest would come from the next nearest and so on. (The other key trick would to be to have a supply speed, which means that if it takes too long for the supply it called to reach it, it takes attrition damage.) (You would, of coruse, be able to have transports and supply depots you'd fill up pre-war with a stash of supply to be used.)

That would make warfare more strategic (as well as make doomstacks less of an no-brainer tactic, since you'd have to be careful to a) not send your doomstack too far out of supply without a LOT of supply ships full of pre-stored supply and b) could be interupted by smaller enemy forces, requirng you to guard your supply chains.

Simpler version would just be to have a supply range and capacity for planets/starbases/supply depot and oif you leave (or exceed the capacity) of which, you take attirition damage.

(You could call supply "fuel" if you like, it's basically the same.)



Or if we want instead the space battles to be about tactics, rather than strategic planning*, Stellaris needs to make itself more SotS and/or Sins of a Solar Empire (or AI War or...); the current system of doing neither strategic choices and planning nor tactical decision making is... A bit pants, to be honest. It's marginally better than, say GalCivII was, but it's still moribund at best. Not very satisfying, for me, at least.

(If it could do both well, it would, of course, then be the best 4X ever.)



*Because if what is desired is a top-level game that is like what an actual government/top brass military might be making, that IS basically primarily logistics.

 

[Cordane]

Start with the idea that each planet provides a certain amount of supply/logistics (I'll use "Supply" from here out), and each fleet (and could include military stations) consumes an amount of Supply. "Distance" from a Supply point is key - if a fleet is far away from a Supplying planet, the cost to Supply should be higher than for a local defense fleet. Distance is relative to the path between the two:

• Secure (no unchecked enemy presence) owned territory (within territorial borders) would have little to no Distance penalty added to the Supply cost (e.g., Supplying planet to territorial system to territorial system to fleet, by whatever FTL method, would have 0-25% of the actual Distance)
• Secure ally-owned territory (federation, vassal, protectorate, overlord) would have 25-75% of the actual Distance
• Secure unowned systems (isn't within a empires' borders) would have normal 100% Distance applied
• Secure Open-Border systems (another empire's borders, but open to your empire) would have a Distance modifier based on their opinion of the fleet's Empire (a strong positive opinion - helpful - would use maybe 90% of the Distance, while a similar negative opinion - obstructionist - would similarly be 110% cost or more)
• Enemy territory counts at least full Distance, with systems with Supply stations and occupied planets having lower penalties (125% of Distance), and operational enemy stations and unoccupied enemy-controlled planets having much higher penalties (150-200%)
• Hostile fleets always force a recalculation of Supply path

Fleets above a certain Capacity would also deal with Overburden penalties - over-stressing the Supply infrastructure in a given region. Fleets below a certain Capacity (relative to overall capacity) may even be eligible for a Scout or Skirmisher discount, allowing for really long-range exploration missions.

If a Supply planet can't support a fleet entirely on its own, other nearby planets contribute, with each being calculated separately. Fleets that are the largest and furthest out from the empire "eat first", then more nearby/smaller fleets, and last external and internal military stations. This can mean that stations near the front line in a war, but still within the borders, may still have Distance penalties, because they're drawing Supply from the backwater planets on the other side of the empire.

What elements can be used to mitigate the Distance and Overburden penalties?

• Weapon, Utility, or Accessory slots on combat vessels set for increased stores (reduces Supply burden on fleet for that ship)
• Fleet Tender ships, with limited Utility slots for actual defenses but a special slot(s) for countering Distance and Overburden penalties up to a given Supply amount (e.g., a fleet using 1000 Supply is also facing 500 Supply in Distance/Overburden penalties, but could use a Fleet Tender to counter up to 200)
  • These ships have to be part of the organized fleet and can't just be split off immediately before a battle to avoid fire without the fleet incurring the resultant penalties
  • Because they wouldn't have weapons, they shouldn't draw too much attention during a battle, but are still quite vulnerable
• Admirals would offer a percent reduction in Distance and Overburden penalties based on stars, with some having a perk that reduces penalties further by a set percentage

Once the fleets of an empire are over their Supply limit (for the empire in total), they start experiencing RoF, Regen, Windup/down, and Speed penalties, relative to the Supply overrun. These should be experienced across the board, as everyone feels the pinch. I would prefer to avoid mitigating these penalties, especially by having some backwater fleets/stations be sacrificial anodes for front-line fleets.

I'm still trying to figure out how to account for a player using multiple fleets to avoid individual Overburden penalties, but effectively still having a doomstack. I just don't know how I would apply the Overburden on the systems along the path, especially with each of them being used for multiple empires. If the Overburden is essentially just on the final system, that would probably do well enough.

(Added during edit)