Superstacks

[AJL]

A very major problem in both HoI2 & 3 are massive, invincible and possible super stacks dominating the battlefield. As we all know, in HoI2 it was easy for France to build 250+ divisions, pile them up on the four provinces bordering with Belgium and make the historic route of Germany invasion totally untenable. In theory the new supply system in HoI3 3 coupled with the massive numbers of provinces made the super stack problem a thing of the past. Yet in reality super stacks are still often a problem in HoI3 as anyone reading that forum can attest to. As an example, I recall an instance when the U.S. launched a 350+ brigade amphibious assault on Germany in 1940 against a single province.

What I would like to hear is why the super stack issue won't be a problem in AoD?

 

[Titan79]

It shouldn't be a problem anymore - or at least it should have been greatly scaled down. In AoD very big stacks will suffer from increasingly bigger penalties: the more units you have, the larger the malus.

 

[AJL]

Well I understood from the development diaries that the more divisions one places in a single province the worse each of them will perform. What I guess I'd like to know is a bit more about how quickly, or not, it becomes impractical to assemble super stacks. Since we have heard before that super stack would be a thing of the past and been disappointed I am hoping for a bit more info.

Also, I am wondering just how difficult it is to add provinces for a modding noob like me.

 

[KevinG]

It shouldn't be a problem anymore - or at least it should have been greatly scaled down. In AoD very big stacks will suffer from increasingly bigger penalties: the more units you have, the larger the malus.

HOI2 had a similar system (except it was static) but it only applied to the attacks and the defenders have no such penalties. Is this true for AOD as well?

 

[Mjarr]

HOI2 had a similar system (except it was static) but it only applied to the attacks and the defenders have no such penalties. Is this true for AOD as well?

Actually you could get command over max penalty while defending in HoI2, but sometimes it tended to be quite random as due support defence among other things could raise the command limit even up to 400+ divisions without any penalties, atleast in some random occasions.

However, exceeding the command limit in any regular case (let's say superstack attack vs superstack attack) would result into that the battle is going to take quite some time and it's going to be highly indecisive.

While this is bit off topic, you could mod in HoI2 to eliminate superstacks with some modifiers. If you use WiF-alike combat system and add command over max penalty -500% any unit that falls into the category will be annihilated quite quickly. I once tested (for testing purposes) 80 division superstack vs 14 french ones and I lost over 30 of them in two days due the penalty, so if nothing else it should be moddable for AoD aswell.

 

[Conanteacher]

Why annihilate 30+ Divisions in a couple of days? That does not sound like a smart modification.
Could it be done so that one province is not able to host more than 72 Divisions?

 

[KevinG]

Actually you could get command over max penalty while defending in HoI2, but sometimes it tended to be quite random as due support defence among other things could raise the command limit even up to 400+ divisions without any penalties, atleast in some random occasions.

This is impossible in vanilla HOI2 because the way the game decides what the max stacking penalty is for defenders is to just add the max command limit for each of your generals. It's only possible to get the penalty if you have some corps commanded by mj generals and stuff like that.

While this is bit off topic, you could mod in HoI2 to eliminate superstacks with some modifiers. If you use WiF-alike combat system and add command over max penalty -500% any unit that falls into the category will be annihilated quite quickly. I once tested (for testing purposes) 80 division superstack vs 14 french ones and I lost over 30 of them in two days due the penalty, so if nothing else it should be moddable for AoD aswell.

That would be missing the point though. With just 4 provinces along the Belgium-French border there's literally no room to maneuver or sneak through the main French lines like what happened historically and it leads to wildly ahistorical outcomes like having to go through directly through the maginot or through Italy.

The thing is I have played some mods for HOI2 that actually have added provinces and if they can do it why can't the AOD dev team do it, or at the very least make it easily moddable?

 

[Mjarr]

This is impossible in vanilla HOI2 because the way the game decides what the max stacking penalty is for defenders is to just add the max command limit for each of your generals. It's only possible to get the penalty if you have some corps commanded by mj generals and stuff like that.

As I said, it tends to be quite rare and only in random occasions.

The reason why I might've seen it more in general (mainly on my part as I modified AI to avoid such stuff to begin with) is due heavily modified game to begin with (slow combat, unit buildtimes are greatly increased (E.G. takes 5½ months just to get one infantry division out without any extra slider stuff)) and ages since I played the vanilla last time

With just 4 provinces along the Belgium-French border there's literally no room to maneuver or sneak through the main French lines like what happened historically and it leads to wildly ahistorical outcomes like having to go through directly through the maginot or through Italy.

That is true more or less, no doubt about that.

Why annihilate 30+ Divisions in a couple of days? That does not sound like a smart modification.

A penalty for making super stacks instead of employing proper attacks. Obviously - as mentioned - I do have few versions of HoI2 on my computer, one with my personal mods and stuff, one with East is Red mod and one for Modern Day Scenario. In my own privately modded HoI2 I already made AI to be adjusted for avoiding major superstacks in general without making it completely useless, but I also made a reason to AVOID player made superstacks to begin with. I could go and make them but it's going to be quite costly, so I'd rather be more creative and realistic (considering that a single land battle already can last several days without extra support) with my units to begin with.

It sounds stupid, but it's great way to keep things in order and actually to have a reserve instead of make +600 division stack of death that would beat everything along the way since you know it's impossible to defeat.

 

[Alex_brunius]

From dev diary 7:

Because this is (roughly) an area effect, and the firepower comes from one "side" of the area, it works out as a square root (actually, some sources (notably Dupuy) say it is harsher than that, as it tails away to be almost flat – i.e. *added firepower for added troops - eventually).

This has several game effects; it means that brigades and powerful units are more valuable, because just buying lots of cheap units hits diminishing returns. If division A is twice as powerful as division B in attack, two of division B are not as powerful in attack as one division A - they are about 0.7 times as powerful, where in Arma they would have been as powerful. This effect is a small mechanical tweak, but it has big effects!

It also means that, if you go above a commander's command span, adding extra units actually*reduces*the force attack value! 10 divisions under a General with no HQ are less effective in attack than 9 divisions. This makes commanders and HQs even more critical than before.

The "square root rule" means, too, that battles between larger forces take longer; if a battle with one division on each side takes 2 days, a battle with 9 divisions on each side will take 6 days. No longer can Kursk be done with in a single morning...

 

[AJL]

Yes I read that paragraph but am still wondering if it applies only to attackers and if other factors modify the practicality of stacks to what extent and if the modifiers apply to attackers and defenders. Hopefully someone involved with the development team will have something to say on the matter.

 

[Balesir]

The 'square root rule' applies equally to both attackers and defenders. Other stacking effects (over leader span, air and naval overstacking) apply just as they do in ARMA.

 

[AJL]

Thank you for the info. I regret to say I never tried ARMA so I wonder how the effects you mentioned for that product differ from DD?

 

[Balesir]

Heh - you got me, there. I don't think they differ at all, but it's so long since I played vanilla DD that I'm really not sure!