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May 2, 2002
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That said, I found Superpower 2 to be less entertaining than watching paint dry.

"Spreadsheet game" just about sums it up, yes. You're facing a few decades of nothing but balancing a spreadsheet. And a spreadsheet based on bogus data too, that assumes every country has the US/western europe kind of economy.

E.g., sure, in some abstract model, the chinese (almost) 1 million man army sounds like a major expense. But repeat after me: it's less than 0.1% of their population. That's it. It's actually less army than any western nation has. It costs China very very little to keep that army.

E.g., sure, it sounds cool to apply some abstract model where each citizen needs X dollars worth of milk and cheese per day. So China needs X billion dollars a day in milk and cheese, and has major dissent for not producing that. Except they're genetically lactose intollerant. That's why they don't produce or need much dairy stuff.

Basically the whole economic model for anyone below, say, 75% human development is plain bogus.

Then comes the cool stuff like ethnic and religious groups. According to the manual giving a group more or less rights, affects the relationships to other countries that have that group too. Would be nice, if it actually worked. Almost no groups exists in more than one country.

E.g., let's say you persecute your "Chinese" language group. Ought to get China annoyed, right? Well, no, because China has no "chinese" language group. It has "Cantonese", "Mandarin", "Manchu" and others instead.

E.g., let's say you persecute the "Eastern Orthodox" citizens. Ought to annoy Russia and Ukraine, right? Not really, because neither of them has an "Eastern Orthodox" religious group. They have "Russian Orthodox", "Ukrainian Orthodox", etc, instead.

In fact, either of the above will annoy the USA more than it annoys the countries which IRL have those ethnic or religious groups.

And it only gets worse when a war starts.

For starters, any country has an infinite naval capacity for transporting troops. So the USA for example can move their whole bloody army to the USSR (if you play that mod) within a week. Or viceversa. Never mind that IRL it took a year of shipping troops and staging them in Saudi Arabia to be able to attack even Iraq for the first time. Nah, in Superpower 2 you can magically move everyone over the water in a week.

Then come the land battles which are so bogus, it's not even funny. Everyone just charges at each other at top speed, with zero regard to formations or elementary tactics.

E.g., Infantry, for all its high cost, just stays somewhere in the back and does nothing whatsoever, while everyone else dukes it out. Then whoever won comes around and slaughters the defenseless infantry with zero casualties in the process.

E.g., I've seen artillery vehicles charge in front of the slower tanks. No, honestly. What kind of military sense that makes, is completely beyond me.

And then they reach for the nukes. That's probably _the_ thing that ruins the game the most for me.

E.g., China decides to attack India. So two weeks later, it launches all its nukes at... Russia. WTF?
 

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Dec 5, 2004
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frasco101 said:
For what it's worth, I'm a Supreme Ruler 2010 Beta. BattleGoat Studios has done an absolute spectacular job when it comes to listening to what their (potential) customers say (as they have yet to release a game). The game was originally slated to be released more than a year ago, however is delayed not due to errors or such, but rather because of new features implemented at the request of forum members. Back when the game was in developement, all you had to do was post a thread, make a suggestion and within 12 hours, a DEVELOPER (one of three or so main guys) would reply...asking questions about your idea, talking about its potential and its possible implementation. Often, all of the developers, and other forum members, would weigh in. Contrast that with the almost god-like method of the Paradox devs and the difference is astounding.

Now, I'll be the first to say that paradox is quite above average when it comes to listen to its customers, but I have always thought they would gain more if they had actual developers (no offense to the Mods, you do a great job) commenting on ideas. I know there are a ton of threads each day, but to be honest, it would be a lot better if in every few threads one of the Paradox devs would comment on Ship ranges or the how the Japanese AI will be reworked. By turn making themselves less available (perhaps they thought that by acting like EA games or other big names they would become more respected? ) they really do themselves a disservice by often having their most valuable resources- forum members- walking around in the dark,

That being said:

Super Power II deserves to be hanged by its neck until dead, then burned....and then fired out of a cannon. It is illogical and over complicated. Simple as that.

SR 2010,.....it's complex...even compared to Victoria. But not too difficult to get a hang of. Diplomacy is big, and war is VERY in depth...dont you DARE try a tank rush against a Milan rocket battallion....you will cry afterwards.
However, I can appreciate that storyline might turn some off, but it is a game I reccomend.

Regards to all,

Frasco101





You are right. I completely agree with you with regards to Paradox's customer dealings. They are stubborn, rigid and think they are above average. They should follow the North American model of customer relationship rather than the stiff European one which makes customers feel sad. They should not be like dictators.
 

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Sep 29, 2002
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They are also a new company trying to build a relationship with the customer base. SInce Paradox already has a customer base their workers do not need to stay up all hours trying to answer all questions.

Besides if you rate a companies customer relations on whether they answer all of your questions then you must be sorely disappointed with the companies you buy from.
 

JASGripen

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Martial-law said:
You are right. I completely agree with you with regards to Paradox's customer dealings. They are stubborn, rigid and think they are above average. They should follow the North American model of customer relationship rather than the stiff European one which makes customers feel sad. They should not be like dictators.


Stiff European one? Heh as if it ever were an European kind on something, statement of the day.

But following in the steps of EA, UBI for name examples of North American model of customer relationship could perhaps be the way? :rolleyes:

This is not a continent issue, I guarantee that, even if Rumsfeldt would state otherwise.
 
May 2, 2002
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Well, in Paradox's defense, there's no magic recipe there. If the devs start posting on forums, there _will_ be someone to complain that they post instead of fixing the bugs.

Also, dunno, if someone puts their foot in their mouth in a forum, it tends to have worse effects if they're a dev or a designer. More people will take it as an attitude of the company as a whole, than as one person's bad hair day.
 

Supreme Emporer

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Kvlt 45 said:
Ive had a few crashes in SP with 1.2 unmodded. But I wouldnt call HoI2 unstable... Just with a very crappy AI that needs enormous tweaking.

Consider this...GET version 1.4. This patch fixes nearly EVERY bug in SP2. Paradox plaza should do something like this.

SP2 Will get better once GolemLabs comes out with the new editor. It allows one to edit the whole game, interface and all, easier than HOI2.
You can't say SP2 is all a spreadsheet. Ive had my experience with SuperPower since 2002.

HOI2 and SP2 are DIFFERENT!
 

unmerged(6777)

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Dec 10, 2001
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Let's see...

There are currently 7778 threads (at this instant) in the HoI2 forum. Let's say that Johan was to read every single thread once (and only once) and then compose an official reply to it. Let's guess that he might average 10 minutes per thread (to read it, consider a response, and then type it). That would mean that he would have spent 1296.3333 hours replying to thread rather than developing and coding the game. In a standard US business model (with 40 hour work weeks) that equates to 32.4 weeks spent on customer feedback - more than half a year. And, of course, using this same US business model he should really read and reply more than once since there are further response that would require his attention.

Hmmm...now remind me why BattleGoat is behind schedule...


Not that I don't think that customer feedback and accessibility isn't important, but I think that Paradox does a far superior job than a large majority of the game developers out there.

Also, out of curiosity, how is BattleGoat dealing with the inevitable situations where one group of customers asks for a feature that is in direct conflict with a feature that another group of cusomters wants? (Example: if Paradox was actively modifying their game design based on user feedback here, they would actually need to release about 2,000 different versions of the game)
 

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Dec 15, 2002
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Well, HoI2 has earned better reviews (91% for example) and rewards such as editor's choice and others. SP2 on the other hand has suffered a little more from the gaming media, although I think it did get a few respectable reviews. I myself enjoy both of these games but I do think HoI2 is more of a game. Its more detailed and alot more realistic. One can, however, look at SP2 as a modern version of HoI2. In other words all modern and present day units, and even ones that are not yet created. Just as HoI2, SP2 gives the player a chance to control any nation in the world but from a modern point of view. That said, I think anyone here who enjoys HoI2 may also want to pick up SP2, it is a fun game and better then the original SP. Is it better then HoI2? No, but it is different.
 
May 2, 2002
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Rodney, I wouldn't mind it if SP2 actually was a modern HOI2. The _idea_ of controlling a modern day nation is way cool, and I actually love their unit designer. I wish I could basically do the same in HOI2. You know, design my own tank instead of having a jump from BT-7 directly to T34-M41.

That said, for all its good ideas, I find SP2 to have an utter crap implementation in the actual game system.

E.g., their military part is utter crap. Seeing the artillery charging 10 miles in front of the infantry is downright stupid. Or having infantry vehicles that leave the infantry behind, rush ahead alone and get destroyed first, because they're the fastest and least armoured units. Or aircraft carriers rushing in front of the destroyers. Or seeing _interceptors_ holding the front line.

So basically all that giving me units and military control is nullified by a combat system that's just _broken_.

And I'm not even getting again into the utterly absurd tanks that drive over the Pacific.

E.g., the economic model based on dollars instead of tons is utterly disfunctional. There is a _fundamental_ difference for example between (A) just not having enough grains, and (B) having lots of it, but low value in dollars for any reason. (E.g., low value of national currency, or you're producing mostly plain bread instead of more valuable foods.)

If RL functioned like SP2, for example the recent free-fall of the dollar value would have cut the USA's actual production of everything in half, and for example left their population starving because the agricultural production was halved. Or at least nuked their agricultural exports, because the population ate the same _value_ of food... i.e., everyone suddenly ate twice as many pounds of food per day.

Or conversely, because the Euro rose sharply compared to the Dollar, everyone in Europe would suddenly eat half as many calories per day. And still be happy.

You can probably see how that's utterly illogical and broken.

E.g., having control of a countries diplomacy is a great idea, until you realize that in SP2 it doesn't even work.

For starters, the enforced symmetry in diplomatic relations (a fault which HOI2 actually shares) causes absurd situations where someone gets pissed off at me for something _they_ did to me.

E.g., if I'm playing Russia, China sooner or later sends an espionage mission... and then _they_ get pissed off at me because of that. So because now they're even more pissed off now, it becomes a downwards spiral of doom where they start sending terrorist actions, assassinations, etc, my way, and get ever more pissed off at me in the process. And then fly the nukes.

How utterly absurd is that?

E.g., all those treaties are great looking on paper, but they're abstracted to the point of being meaningless.

Etc.

So basically, yeah, great idea, shame about the crap execution. I wouldn't mind it if someone took the idea and actually made a good game out of it.
 

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Mar 20, 2005
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Martial-law said:
Had Paradox been giving some attention to their customers' wishes at least they could reply them whether they can comply with their requests or not as it wont cost them a cent but would give customers the impression that at least they care. They dont give a damn.

Yeah! And my mom should give me a good reason why I can't get a machine gun!!

I would note that the manual that came with the game mentioned this forum as a good place to find additional information about the game.. in no way was it advertised as a good place to have ones geek-ego stroked with 24/7 hand-holding developers. It's fun to see the occasional dev (see bioware) tear some jerk a new one but I would prefer them to debug code much more than individualy answering every BS idea some dink has, thank you.

-drjones