Super heavy armour

[Orlunu]

Heavy armor, is the largest tank that is still practical, and from our knowledge of WW2 and post-WW2, 70 tonne is as heavy as you can get.
I would prefer we had King Tiger(and similar weight tanks) as super-heavy tank, then, they could actually be useful!
Soviet army, for example produced notable amount of IS-7, but eventually tank was dropped since it was just too impractical for Soviet rails.
There were American prototypes of similar weight,...

It just seems like a lost opportunity for paradox, to include tech that is actually useful, as opposed to stupidity of Maus.

And guess what, sometimes a discussion about a certain thing can also lead to a tiny part that is not connected to the OP without being off-topic. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. You are simply moving the goal-posts time and time again.

Oh, look, you're wrong. He was talking about in-game units.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Lets not forget that many nations had designs or even prototypes for Super Heavy Armor. And WW2 was first war where nations actually saw how to use tanks. Had there been arms race before WW2 just like there was before WW1, i am certain more nations would have built some super heavy armor.

Here is wikipedia links in case you are feeling lazy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-heavy_tank
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

 

[Secret Master]

The problem is that the SHARM are so slow that they are basically giant stationary targets (ar as near it makes no difference) to artillery and aircrafts.

I will also point out that not only are they easy to hit with the weapons you describe, but some of them are so slow in any terrain that is not a very well made road that infantry can outrun them. Maus might be able to kill other tanks, but she will never outrun a forward observer.

 

[svennnnnnnnnnnn]

The problem is that the SHARM are so slow that they are basically giant stationary targets (ar as near it makes no difference) to artillery and aircrafts.

The only way to solve that is to go Super-Super-Heavy tanks, SSHARM. If any Americans don't like that abbreviation, I am fine with Ultra-Super-Heavy Tanks (USHARM). Armor so thick it doesn't matter if it is really easy to shoot. Cannon so big we used a storm drain for the pipe. You can even have a small garden on top for camouflage and to spice up those boring MREs. Patent Pending.

 

[Premu]

The only way to solve that is to go Super-Super-Heavy tanks, SSHARM. If any Americans don't like that abbreviation, I am fine with Ultra-Super-Heavy Tanks (USHARM). Armor so thick it doesn't matter if it is really easy to shoot. Cannon so big we used a storm drain for the pipe. You can even have a small garden on top for camouflage and to spice up those boring MREs. Patent Pending.

You mean like that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster

 

[Scutatus]

The only way to solve that is to go Super-Super-Heavy tanks, SSHARM. If any Americans don't like that abbreviation, I am fine with Ultra-Super-Heavy Tanks (USHARM). Armor so thick it doesn't matter if it is really easy to shoot. Cannon so big we used a storm drain for the pipe. You can even have a small garden on top for camouflage and to spice up those boring MREs. Patent Pending.

Ok, hold on for a mo, I'll go get my Baneblade.

EDIT: lol and inadvertently I have given myself the name for my Superheavy Tank variants, should I ever build any.

 

[Secret Master]

Ok, hold on for a mo, I'll go get my Baneblade.

EDIT: lol and inadvertently I have given myself the name for my Superheavy Tank variants, should I ever build any.

You mean like that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster

Pffft...

 

[Scutatus]

Pffft...

Yeah Ok, yours is better.

 

[Kozer]

I see your "Ultra Heavy" tank and raise you a Bolo

 

[Scutatus]

I see your "Ultra Heavy" tank and raise you a Bolo

My God, what have we started?

 

[Kozer]

My God, what have we started?

It was started but its been finished. I may have passed over the SH tank and gone right to continental siege unit

 

[KalZakath]

Or just go the the Barsoom option - I give you Zodanga...

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net...isney-1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120203100852

 

[mursolini]

Challenger 2 CLEP (nicknamed Megatron.) With a weight of 75t it stands controvert to your post, that 70t would be the magical number we can not cross.

I would expect a poster to post something more than just a picture
I`m not sure how you managed to read that the practical bound of weight being close to 70 tonne means it is a magical barrier that can`t be crossed

I don't think that the number was meant as "70t and not one pound on top of it", it was meant as a general guideline. Something in the range of 70t is the maximum, going for 90, 100, or even 200t like the Maus leads to tanks that aren't really practicable anymore. 75t still very much falls into the 70t category.

Yes, if we look at tanks in 1940-2000, most of even heaviest MBTs didn`t cross 70t limit, while 60 tonne MBTs were considered perfectly practical. Hence, IMO, it would be reasonable to put 60-70 tonne tanks into tech tree as both "super heavy" and still "useful" and producible in noticeable amount.

Ok, so 75 tons. That's good, the 70 ton limit would've also cut out the Jagdtiger. Does the 80t Tortoise fit into the "acceptable" weight category? Does the up-armoured Char 2C? If it does, does the 95t T28? If so, can we really disqualify the O-I, at a mere 5 tons heavier?

The point is that these weight limits you've put down are fairly arbitrary, and dictated by operational requirements. The practicable weight limit is set by the operating conditions and role. No, for doing what we want of tanks nowadays, SHARM would be a really bad idea. For cracking open the Siegfried line, that weight limit jumps right up. It will be up to the player to judge whether they think these tanks are worth it or not; the fact that you will probably judge that they aren't in almost every case doesn't mean that others should be prevented from picking a different play style to you.

Yes, if we talk about "still practical" design the bound is always somewhat arbitrary.

I don`t want to see tanks that are obviously impractical in tech tree, and King Tiger was that heaviest thing that at least theoretically had some utility outside of the absurdly limited cases, in which, amusingly enough, heavy SP-ART like SU-152, ISU-152 or Brumbar worked far better in practice. It either is "stupid tanks nobody will ever built" or there must be some sort of arbitrary limit on models so they could get sensible set of stats, to be actually useful.

Most would not realistically build super-heavy tanks just so they could break through like 2 defensive lines in the game, considering there are better options present. It has to be more useful.

I didn't put down anything, I merely corrected something.

And yes, the Jagdtiger was absolutely inadequate in every way, which is why they didn't bother to produce more than 74 of them. It was barely able to move and broke down constantly because the engine and gear couldn't handle the weight. It wasted fuel in an unheard of fashion, couldn't travel over most bridges, used two-part ammunition, and the crew had to lock and unlock the gun everytime the tank was supposed to move, which meant that someone had to get out of the tank to do so. In short, crews absolutely hated it.

The only advantages were that the gun was extremely powerful and the front armor was virtually invincible. But those didn't make up for all its weaknesses. All the other tanks weren't really useful in that kind of setup either, so yes, all that still remains true.

What a player wants to do in a game has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so I have no idea why you even bring it up. This was about the weight-classes that are still useful for a tank in reality, nothing else.

You are trying to turn the argument into something it hasn't been. It is not about one certain number, it is about a general guideline. There have been tanks up to a weight-class of around 70t that turned out to be useful, though clearly a lot of them weren't. Anything that went into a different weight-class above that (and no, as has been stated before, this is NOT about a very specific number of tons) was deemed to be entirely useless, which led to these kind of tanks being abandoned very quickly.

Indeed, the story of King Tiger and JagdTiger pretty much shows that they were already pushing the limit of weight too far. It is simply impractical to build anything heavier, which, is pretty much exactly what happened IRL.

 

[safe-keeper]

They have their sharm, but I suppose their actual usefulness will be at least somewhat limited, at least by the fact that they're a late-game unit, like jet fighters and rockets. Thus you'll probably have a fleet of good tank variants and factories pumping them out at a high rate thanks to a good production efficiency by the time you unlock them.

I have built them myself, though. Used them as cornerstones for "fortress provinces" which also had high AA, road, and fort values and a couple other defensive divisions. Felt really cool.

Pffft...

 

[Scutatus]

Now, should the Germans decide to bring back their Stormtroopers...

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Now, should the Germans decide to bring back their Stormtroopers...

That would just break immersion, becouse for gameplay balance Stormtroopers would actually have to hit something... And we can´t have that.

 

[Scutatus]

That would just break immersion, becouse for gameplay balance Stormtroopers would actually have to hit something... And we can´t have that.

lol darn, you're right!

P.S. Thank you Germany for creating Stormtroopers in WWI, thereby giving us the cool name for Lucas to borrow and make famous.

 

[Premu]

P.S. Thank you Germany for creating Stormtroopers in WWI, thereby giving us the cool name for Lucas to borrow and make famous.

But for some reason he did give him the wrong weapons! The weapons of the Star Wars Stormtroopers are all from WW 2, not WW 1. This really breaks the immersion.

 

[Scutatus]

But for some reason he did give him the wrong weapons! The weapons of the Star Wars Stormtroopers are all from WW 2, not WW 1. This really breaks the immersion.

lol

It's Lucas, what do you expect? WW1 German terms with WWII weaponry, in a space fantasy with clear Asian inspiration and a story that is actually three stories and changes depending on what edition of the film you are watching. Consistency? What's that?

But I digress...

 

[Klausewitz]

My point is that we have a hard time predicting how warfare would have developed if the maginot line had been the main theatre. Perhaps a massive concentration of AA guns would have made low-altitude planes impossible to use. Perhaps increased presence from the media would have made infantry pushes unacceptable (more a problem for the western allies than Germans). Maybe artillery needs to be both heavier and mobile to avoid counterattacks by artillery and encirclement (SH-SP-ART?). So yeah, maybe SHARM wouldn't have been the solution to ww1:2, but I think it is possible.

The issue of time is not a problem in my book. Either they aren't used and gather dust, but if the situation arises where they are needed they are available. If germany gets away with taking poland and don't war France until 1943 or even later, they might reinforce the maginot line beyond what normal tactics and equipment can defeat, thus making SHARM an option.

I don't think a WW1 situation will ever develop simply because the needs necessary to implement it in WW2 would have broken any economy.
In WW1 fighting was contained in a very small strip of land, maybe 40 km across. In that area almost all of the fighting happened, and fighting rarely spilled out of those.
So the whole of rear area could funnel supplies towards the fighting with little to no interference with losses only occuring once they entered the range of enemy artillery.
But even then whole trench system were routinely penetrated and disaster only averted because the defender was always able to get reinforcements in by train faster then the attacker could get his across no man's land (among other things because no man's land was under enemy fire while the train lines were not).
In WW2 a whole extra dimension has opened.
Supplies can be attacked all the way from the factory to the front, necessitating massive anti-air defenses, but the ressources for those need to come from somewhere. So either the air defense is weakened, leading to a weakening of the trenches by way of supply shortage or the trench is weakened, making it more easily captured.
Add in the advances in accuracy of artillery fire and bombing as well as mobility of troops and WW1 still trench warfare becomes unsustainable:
Either the trench is strangle from the air (no supplies), stormed as in WW1 (the Germans routinely took the first and second trench in offensives and sometimes even the third but were always unable to break out before reinforcements by train arrived) or circumvented (mobile units like the Panzerdivisionen or by Fallschirmjäger).