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LeibSSolmai

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Super Heavy tanks where just to slow in HoI3, Wikipedia says that a Maus was planed to manage a speed of 18 km/h on streets, so a speed of around 10 km/h while attacking should be still a reasonable assumption for it an comparable tanks in its weight class.

A super Heavy tank division is of course not very useful for Blitzkrieg or attacks on cities, but its just what you need to crush an strongly entrenched enemy at a naval invasion bridgehead or to complete an encirclement. With the new supply and armour system this divisons could also work as a "meat grinder" that eats the enemy tank production while the shells of the enemy medium and heavy tanks are just bouncing off like pebbles.
 

kviiri

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The inclusion of super heavy tanks in the first place is arguably ahistorical, since in reality the number that ever existed in WWII can be counted on one hand (there were all of two Maus in production for instance, neither of which ever actually entered service).

I don't agree with this logic. If countries had projects for building Super Heavy tanks, that makes them entering production during an alt-history war an entirely plausible option. It's no more ahistoric than France being allowed a rocketry program.
 
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adam_grif

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It sounds like SHARM would be great for defending large ports from amphibious invasions?

Doubtful, any tank that is close enough to the port to repel an invasion is within firing range of the naval guns supporting it. Even if only DD and CL are in support, you're talking about tanks that can barely move versus intense 100-155mm barrages. Might work fine in game terms though.
 
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mursolini

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Heavy armor, is the largest tank that is still practical, and from our knowledge of WW2 and post-WW2, 70 tonne is as heavy as you can get.
I would prefer we had King Tiger(and similar weight tanks) as super-heavy tank, then, they could actually be useful!
Soviet army, for example produced notable amount of IS-7, but eventually tank was dropped since it was just too impractical for Soviet rails.
There were American prototypes of similar weight,...

It just seems like a lost opportunity for paradox, to include tech that is actually useful, as opposed to stupidity of Maus.
 
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Klausewitz

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Super Heavy tanks where just to slow in HoI3, Wikipedia says that a Maus was planed to manage a speed of 18 km/h on streets, so a speed of around 10 km/h while attacking should be still a reasonable assumption for it an comparable tanks in its weight class.
That is top speed.
Divided that into to get the sustainable speed.
Then consider the supply train and the problem of finding bridges and streets able to accomodate it and 3 km/h is quite generous.

A super Heavy tank division is of course not very useful for Blitzkrieg or attacks on cities, but its just what you need to crush an strongly entrenched enemy at a naval invasion bridgehead or to complete an encirclement. With the new supply and armour system this divisons could also work as a "meat grinder" that eats the enemy tank production while the shells of the enemy medium and heavy tanks are just bouncing off like pebbles.
The problem is that the SHARM are so slow that they are basically giant stationary targets (ar as near it makes no difference) to artillery and aircrafts.
 

Orlunu

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Heavy armor, is the largest tank that is still practical, and from our knowledge of WW2 and post-WW2, 70 tonne is as heavy as you can get.

14513088926_66e995bc43_b.jpg
 
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klucz13

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Soviet army, for example produced notable amount of IS-7, but eventually tank was dropped since it was just too impractical for Soviet rails.
I would argue that four prototypes of IS-7 is notable amount. Unless you mean IS-4, then above statement about production and impracticality is correct. The fact that IS-4 was mass produced as opposed to IS-7 is why I proposed IS-4 as super-heavy in other thread regarding Soviet tank tech tree.
 

mursolini

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Wat?
I would argue that four prototypes of IS-7 is notable amount. Unless you mean IS-4, then above statement about production and impracticality is correct. The fact that IS-4 was mass produced as opposed to IS-7 is why I proposed IS-4 as super-heavy in other thread regarding Soviet tank tech tree.
Maybe, I think I indeed meant story of IS-4.
 

George Parr

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Challenger 2 CLEP (nicknamed Megatron.) With a weight of 75t it stands controvert to your post, that 70t would be the magical number we can not cross.

I don't think that the number was meant as "70t and not one pound on top of it", it was meant as a general guideline. Something in the range of 70t is the maximum, going for 90, 100, or even 200t like the Maus leads to tanks that aren't really practicable anymore. 75t still very much falls into the 70t category.
 
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Orlunu

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I don't think that the number was meant as "70t and not one pound on top of it", it was meant as a general guideline. Something in the range of 70t is the maximum, going for 90, 100, or even 200t like the Maus leads to tanks that aren't really practicable anymore. 75t still very much falls into the 70t category.

Ok, so 75 tons. That's good, the 70 ton limit would've also cut out the Jagdtiger. Does the 80t Tortoise fit into the "acceptable" weight category? Does the up-armoured Char 2C? If it does, does the 95t T28? If so, can we really disqualify the O-I, at a mere 5 tons heavier?

The point is that these weight limits you've put down are fairly arbitrary, and dictated by operational requirements. The practicable weight limit is set by the operating conditions and role. No, for doing what we want of tanks nowadays, SHARM would be a really bad idea. For cracking open the Siegfried line, that weight limit jumps right up. It will be up to the player to judge whether they think these tanks are worth it or not; the fact that you will probably judge that they aren't in almost every case doesn't mean that others should be prevented from picking a different play style to you.
 
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Denkt

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Super heavy armor get a bonus against fortifications. Most countries during that time called a 45 ton tank for heavy and the Tiger II tank could definitely be a super heavy tank in the game terms as the developers have said the super heavy tank don't really represent the Maus but something more resonable.
 

svennnnnnnnnnnn

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Only in WW2 WW1-like situations could no longer develop.
It was already a huge problem how to keep the artillery from slaughtering all the infantry until it has properly dug in back then, but it is even worse in WW2.
There the only way something like that could develop would be areas of pre-planned fortifications as massive as the Maginot Line (the bunkers France had sprinkled over the border areas would insufficient) but those would be vulnerable to direct fire from bunker flak, storm troop tactics and airpower.
Yes, SHARM could be useful for a battle in the maginot line (though i have doubts whether it would be able to stay mobile enough while also being as heavily armed and armored as necessary) but if it is not already deployed there airpower and infantry+artillery will most likely already have done the work before it can be designed, produced & deployed.
And that completly ignores the possibilities of encirclement or indirect approaches to the problem.
My point is that we have a hard time predicting how warfare would have developed if the maginot line had been the main theatre. Perhaps a massive concentration of AA guns would have made low-altitude planes impossible to use. Perhaps increased presence from the media would have made infantry pushes unacceptable (more a problem for the western allies than Germans). Maybe artillery needs to be both heavier and mobile to avoid counterattacks by artillery and encirclement (SH-SP-ART?). So yeah, maybe SHARM wouldn't have been the solution to ww1:2, but I think it is possible.

The issue of time is not a problem in my book. Either they aren't used and gather dust, but if the situation arises where they are needed they are available. If germany gets away with taking poland and don't war France until 1943 or even later, they might reinforce the maginot line beyond what normal tactics and equipment can defeat, thus making SHARM an option.
 

George Parr

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Ok, so 75 tons. That's good, the 70 ton limit would've also cut out the Jagdtiger. Does the 80t Tortoise fit into the "acceptable" weight category? Does the up-armoured Char 2C? If it does, does the 95t T28? If so, can we really disqualify the O-I, at a mere 5 tons heavier?

The point is that these weight limits you've put down are fairly arbitrary, and dictated by operational requirements. The practicable weight limit is set by the operating conditions and role. No, for doing what we want of tanks nowadays, SHARM would be a really bad idea. For cracking open the Siegfried line, that weight limit jumps right up. It will be up to the player to judge whether they think these tanks are worth it or not; the fact that you will probably judge that they aren't in almost every case doesn't mean that others should be prevented from picking a different play style to you.

I didn't put down anything, I merely corrected something.

And yes, the Jagdtiger was absolutely inadequate in every way, which is why they didn't bother to produce more than 74 of them. It was barely able to move and broke down constantly because the engine and gear couldn't handle the weight. It wasted fuel in an unheard of fashion, couldn't travel over most bridges, used two-part ammunition, and the crew had to lock and unlock the gun everytime the tank was supposed to move, which meant that someone had to get out of the tank to do so. In short, crews absolutely hated it.

The only advantages were that the gun was extremely powerful and the front armor was virtually invincible. But those didn't make up for all its weaknesses. All the other tanks weren't really useful in that kind of setup either, so yes, all that still remains true.

What a player wants to do in a game has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so I have no idea why you even bring it up. This was about the weight-classes that are still useful for a tank in reality, nothing else.

You are trying to turn the argument into something it hasn't been. It is not about one certain number, it is about a general guideline. There have been tanks up to a weight-class of around 70t that turned out to be useful, though clearly a lot of them weren't. Anything that went into a different weight-class above that (and no, as has been stated before, this is NOT about a very specific number of tons) was deemed to be entirely useless, which led to these kind of tanks being abandoned very quickly.
 
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Orlunu

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What a player wants to do in a game has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so I have no idea why you even bring it up. This was about the weight-classes that are still useful for a tank in reality, nothing else.

The OP really did seem to be discussing the game. If you weren't (or whoever you're defending wasn't), and went off on a pointless tangent about the current military setup, then I'd just like to fire the first sentence of this quotation right back.
 

Aries666

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In HoI3, for what I've seen, SHARM were mostly built for defensive purpose... too slow for anything else


... I agree SHARM-AA variants would be a total useless thing... I guess they would be firing huge ammo against planes ? :confused:


EDIT: I meant SHARM, not HARM, post edited
SHARM were pretty useful in HOI3 if you had fought to a static front and needed something serious to force a breakthrough but were otherwise too slow for any real advance.
 

George Parr

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The OP really did seem to be discussing the game. If you weren't (or whoever you're defending wasn't), and went off on a pointless tangent about the current military setup, then I'd just like to fire the first sentence of this quotation right back.

And guess what, sometimes a discussion about a certain thing can also lead to a tiny part that is not connected to the OP without being off-topic. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. You are simply moving the goal-posts time and time again.