Suomenusko Scandinavia or Romuva Wendish Empire

[Crimson Grog]

For my next game I'm thinking about playing Romuva (start in Lithuania of course) or Suomenusko (start in Finland or Estonia); both are easy to reform and are about equal in terms of features/doctrines (or lack thereof). Goals would be pretty standard: create de jure kingdom, reform religion, create de jure empire. After that I'll probably sit tight, maybe expand my religion without blobbing (release as independent kingdoms), more likely get bored and start a new game lol.

My problem is deciding which religion + empire to choose. As Romuva my greatest threat would probably be the Catholics, whereas with Suomenusko it would probably be the Norse. I like the idea of holding out against all odds against Catholic crusades, but I also like the idea of pushing those overpowered, house-favorite Norse out of Scandinavia.

I've never played either religion or region before. In your experience which is more enjoyable? Easier or harder? Fun until you inevitably get roflstomped by a huge crusade?

Edit: I'll most likely be doing this in 867. I also do not plan on going tribal North Korea; I will switch to feudal or merchant republic and use vassals like you're "supposed to".

 

[WomboCombo]

They're both similar in playstyle to the Slavic religion, so if you like them, you'll like the other Defensive Pagans. The Catholics and Orthodoxy would probably try to convert you rather than go to war outright (especially if you start in 769). Just stay in your homeland and you can endure until you're ready to strike out.

 

[WJS]

I did a Suomenusko Russia game where I started as Meshchera. I never did get to form the empire, but I was king of Vladimir, Chernigov, and Novgorod, with lots of infiltration into Ruthenia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, and Volga Bulgaria. Khazaria tends to block access to southern Ruthenia and by extension Galich-Volhynia, but it definitely could be accomplished.

My reforms were Proselytizing, Survivors of Ukko, Ancestor Veneration, and Hierarchical. Since half my lands were originally Slavic, and the Germanics became oddly big proselytizers despite not reforming, having both the better conversion and the conversion resistance was a very good thing. Ancestor Veneration was specifically for access to Eldership, although I could imagine that Agnatic/Enatic Clans would also work here. In fact, I should probably try another game with Agnatic Clans and Temporal, instead.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

My first Holy Fury game was as a Romuva duke in de jure Lithuania in 769. The unreformed Romuva religion gives you some pretty good mechanics, best of all which is Eldership succession so you don't lose your titles to Gavelkind upon death. Forming the Kingdom of Lithuania isnt too hard, and you have 3 holy sites close by. Once you have enough to reform your religion, you can pick the doctrines/natures that appeal to you.

My recommendation is to be careful with reforming the Romuva religion before you create the Wendish Empire. If you reform before creating the Empire, you might want to choose Unrelenting as one your doctrines, otherwise your troops will melt away when you invade unreformed Slavic or Suomenusko realms. Also, be aware that since Romuva is highly resistant to conversion, much of de jure Lithunia will remain "Old Romuva" for 100-150 years, even when sending skilled chaplains to try and convert those counties. A good reformation set-up as a Lithuanian King is Proselytizing, Ancestor Veneration/Unrelenting, and Hierocratic (so your dynasty can be Sainted, and get claims and excommunications against troublesome vassals).

If you wait to reform until after creating the Wendish Empire, then you can vassalize the Reformed Romuva Holy Order, and use their troops, plus your vassals to win most wars, so pagan attrition doesn't matter as much. If you Reform at that point, I recommend Unyielding (more immersive), Ancestor Veneration/Sea Bound, and Hierocratic.

 

[BuddyLove]

The one thing I'll say from my experience in Suomenusko territory is that the supply limits in all your ancestral homelands are pitiful-- which will likely make striking out difficult, but is also a much better defensive positioning than Wenndish Empire which has Norse to the North, Russians to the east, and Francia or HRE to the West all breathing down your neck.

 

[Crimson Grog]

My reforms were Proselytizing, Survivors of Ukko, Ancestor Veneration, and Hierarchical. Since half my lands were originally Slavic, and the Germanics became oddly big proselytizers despite not reforming, having both the better conversion and the conversion resistance was a very good thing. Ancestor Veneration was specifically for access to Eldership, although I could imagine that Agnatic/Enatic Clans would also work here. In fact, I should probably try another game with Agnatic Clans and Temporal, instead.

I was actually thinking about reforming Suomenusko as Proselytizing + Survivors of Ukko + Agnatic/Enatic Clans + Temporal, so I'm glad someone has done something similar.

The one thing I'll say from my experience in Suomenusko territory is that the supply limits in all your ancestral homelands are pitiful-- which will likely make striking out difficult, but is also a much better defensive positioning than Wenndish Empire which has Norse to the North, Russians to the east, and Francia or HRE to the West all breathing down your neck.

I had considered this as well. As Romuva I would probably reform as Unyielding due to being surrounded by enemies.

Does the experience change much between 769 and 867? I usually prefer 867 because I find it less blobby and slightly more historical. I know from experience that Ireland 867 is a disaster but I don't know about the Romuva/Suomenusko regions.

 

[BuddyLove]

I've tried to civilized and conquer the blasted Sons of Ukko both from 769 as Kiev-Russia-Slavic union, where I timed out on a great holy war against them when I controlled an Empire stretching from Novgorad to Eastern Francia, Scandanavia, and Brittania-- the winter at my forces no matter how small I tried to split them and they'd duck in to kill me when I was beaten down by attrition.

I also am currently trying as Empire Scandanavi as the descendants of Harold Fairhair-- conquering Finland is the easy part, but the rest of the Sueomusko remain a serious threat to retake it from me from the northern and Eastern boundaries of my lands.

 

[Narvait]

I just don’t step my foot up North.
With rare exceptions of having a Winter Warrior or two in command.

Attrition, slow movement, poor land. Nah!

Romuva however - after you are Empire all you need to worry about is a random Crusade here and there. All the other enemies are weak and you don’t even need a CB against them (always got that holy war in pocket).

 

[WJS]

Does the experience change much between 769 and 867? I usually prefer 867 because I find it less blobby and slightly more historical. I know from experience that Ireland 867 is a disaster but I don't know about the Romuva/Suomenusko regions.

In both times the area is pretty fragmented. I also started in 867 when Meshchera held a very small territory. For the Romuva, you'll deal with blobbier neighbors in 769 and more active Vikings in 867. For the Suomenusko, a Scandinavian start means the difference between competing with Sigurd Ring, or the Sons of Lóđbrók and Harald Fairhair. In 769, there's only one big player and they're in Denmark, and in the other, there are more, but you can play them off each other better.

Either way, one advantage you have is remoteness and poverty, so you aren't a particularly attractive target.

 

[Lord Finnish]

Does the experience change much between 769 and 867? I usually prefer 867 because I find it less blobby and slightly more historical. I know from experience that Ireland 867 is a disaster but I don't know about the Romuva/Suomenusko regions.

769 is BRUTAL for playing in Finland, at least, though the Suomenusko tribes in Russia have it sliiiightly easier since they don't have to deal with Rurik.

 

[Crimson Grog]

To me it sounds like Suomenusko might be more interesting. I especially like the ability to use winter attrition to my defensive advantage, just like IRL. I was thinking about using Estonia as my "home" kingdom (I can easily hold the entire thing personally) but maybe Finland would be better due to protective isolation?

I also just came up with an idea to reform Estonia into a tall merchant republic rather than going for a large empire. I have too many ideas and not enough time!

 

[DPS]

My experience overall had been that Romuva is easier than Suomenusko, but I'm currently playing my first Suomenusko game with HF, and it's been pretty easy. I'm not sure if that's due to HF making playing as tribal easier, or if I've just been lucky this time, or maybe I've just gotten better at the game since the last time I played as a Suomenusko ruler. In the past, my attempts to start in Finland always ran afoul of Signur Ring or Lodbrok, and attempts with Suomenusko rulers outside of Finland got hammered by Ilmen or nomads.

One big difference between starting as Suomenusko and Romuva is that with Romuva, by the time you reform the faith, you'll almost certainly be the only Romuva ruler, and will be able to use Holy Wars or county conquest against everyone. With Suomenusko, that likely won't be the case; there'll be other Suomenusko realms that you'll have to acquire claims on in other ways if you want to take them over.

Anyway, In my current game, I started as Karelia in 769, formed the Kingdom of Finland, reformed the faith, and then formed a custom empire. I chose Proselytizing, Survivors of Ukko, Meritocracy (with a view toward changing succession to Primogeniture after I feudalize, which I probably will do shortly), and Hierocratic. Interestingly, all of the Germanic realms converted to Catholic, and all the Slavic realms converted to Orthodox by about 900; the steppes (at least the part of them I haven't conquered yet) are Sunni.

 

[BuddyLove]

Are you trying to go for Scandanavia as Suemon or for Volga-Ural?

 

[Crimson Grog]

Are you trying to go for Scandanavia as Suemon or for Volga-Ural?

I was planning on Scandinavia.

 

[Narvait]

Kingdom Estonia is in my future plans too.
All kingdom just for myself, nice.

 

[Xoatl]

Played Suome Perm. Reformed to Ukko and Animism. Animism appears to broken right now unfortunately. But you do get some nifty face paint.