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NeoT

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Introduction
As the events of Sunset Invasion were highly unlikely, i have always thought about trying to bring America to crusader kings 2 in a more historically plausible way. The problem that arrised was that America did not had any impact on old world society until Columbus, even though the vikings visited newfoundland in the 10th century. But that doesn't mean that a more durable contact couldn't have happened if things went differently, as they tend to go in Crusader Kings 2.

As Columbus managed to discover America for the europeans mainly because of the atlantic currents, there is no reason why another medieval voyager couldn't have done it. It would be obviously more difficult, but plausible. Also, the vikings could have sent bigger expeditions and maybe even be able to colonize in a more permanent way newfoundland.

Also, i recently discovered a book by Jack D. Forbes, "The American Discovery of Europe" in wich he discussed the possibily of pre-columbian contact by american initiative. This contact could have been possible by the greenland route to iceland, or through the atlantic currents from the caribbean to Ireland. Again, if things went differently in America, there could be the possibilty of contact from their side (Maybe not in the level of Sunset Invasion, but still).

Even some contact was historically possible, adding america in crusader kings 2 would provoke too much contact between the two worlds and we could have a Zoroastrian Yucatan by 1000 AD. Anyway, the latest DLC Rajas of India and its patch could bring a chance to add America avoiding too much contact from both sides. This could be done (In theory) by adding the new world but separated by the old by an impassable sea. Contact would only be possible by event.

So with this in mind, i started working in the project. What i got right now is a basic province layout and ideas in my head, so i wanted to present the project to the community to talk about how feasible is the project and how much interest it provokes.

Here is the province layout and the possible contact routes.
Provinces.png
Red Arrows represent contact routes. The large green area in north america represents a possible adition to the map, to include the mississipian culture, the great lakes and the Oasisamerica cultures

Contact Mechanisms
There would be three contact levels. They would differ in scale but have the same requisites: Technology, Ownership of a key province (Also possible by a vassal), a special trait, and money. The levels would be:
- Individual Voyage (Only AI Characters): A sole character leaves the old world to find a new life overseas. The result would be that the character loses its titles in his home world, and arrives at the court of an overseas ruler. It could also be an option for banished characters. It is would have the least success probability (15% something like that).

- Expedition: An expedition would be a moderate effort to travel to distants lands and will trigger war we the overseas ruler. I have thought of this mechanism: The Character, once he meets the requisites, will have a decision to form an expedition. After he triggers it, it would have a year or so with a little malus in tax and levy size, and other characters would be able to join the expedition. After the year, the character gains the expedition casus belly on the ruler on the other side, when the character declares war, "the expedition sails", so there would be a chance that it fails completely (like 66% chance of failure), if the expedition is succesful, a moderate amount of soldiers will appear overseas (the amount would depend of the size of his personal levies at home and his retinues). If the war is won, the character loses all his previous titles (are inherited by its heir) and settles in the new world (some of the accompaning characters will arrive at his court, some other will die). If the war is lost (the overseas soldiers die), the expedition fails and everyone on it dies or its taken prisoner and stripped of it's previous titles.

- Invasion: It would be like the Sunset Invasion, a massive expedition organized by a gigantic and powerful empire. The requisites of this would be the same as for an expedition but scaled (If an expedition costed 2000 gold, an invasion would cost 20.000). Also, to be able to invade, the character would need an Empire tier title, a realm of a big number of provinces (like 60 maybe?) and high or absolute authority. After the decision to invade has been made, there would be 10 years of preparation that would give a big malus in tax and levy size, and also would provoke unrest on vassals. When the 10 years pass, and the requisites are still met (if the country managed to mantain itself and didn't crumble to a ever raging civil war), a casus belli is gained against the overseas ruler. After the declaration of war, the invasion starts. The chance of failure would be lower, as it is such a big effort (Like 10% total failure, 30% little invasion, 40% medium invasion, 20% total invasion). The mechanism would be the same as with an expedition, soldiers appear overseas (but a lot more, and would be based on the entire realm's levy and retinues), if the war is won, the character settles in the new world and, as it is an invasion, it would gain a casus belli against its neighbors.

Also, all rulers that leave its original world and have a organized religion, would change its religion to a new world version of it. So if you are a catholic and arrive in America, you would be a new world catholic (as you no longer have any link to the pope and such). Same with reformed nahuatl religion, orthodoxy, etc. [In this i am not so sure if islam would need to have a new world branch]

What Next?

Right now i'm in the research stage of the project, looking for information and also cooperation. It's very difficult to find information about pre-columbian america, and more difficult to find pre-aztec information. My first goal would be to actually make the map (i only have the province layout), maybe i'll fill inner north america, but that will have to wait until the next patch is released. After that, the next step would be making the 867 AD setup and filling the history files.

I have moded victoria II and EU3 before so i have some experience modding, but this would be my first actual mod for crusader kings 2.

Any help would be appreciated, modding information, historic information, or even partnership.

Stage of The Project
- Research *
- The Set Up
- Contact Mechanisms
- Native American Mechanisms
- Technology Improvement
- Religion Enhancement
- Art
 
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Notgnirracen

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This seems like a really interresting mod! Looking forward to seeing the project progress, just one smal thing that I noticed though. It's that Greenland isn't connected to Iceland by sea, I just thougt that since the vikings had a colony there they chould be able to send ships to Europe, but I might be wrong, great work so far anyway! :eek:o
 

Astanna

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Are you cutting Europe off at that line, or is the picture just cropped?
Either way, it looks cool. Good luck!
 

beartjah

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Looks really fun!
I would, however, rather make the distance between europe and emarica so large, that you'd need to sned a massive number of soldiers to make the army that reached the other side large enough to actually be capable of doing something over there. That would make the contact mechanism less through events, and better model why it wasn't possible to reach the other side (I think). Events on the way could also kill of some ships along the way if necesary (once again, I think so).

edit: Also, when building onto that idea, aren't there some ways to use the new secial unit system to make a unit that takes less attrition (perhaps only as retinue, and have it take a large amount of tha cap to build)?

But the idea is brilliant, and I'd surely play it if ti gets to the point of releasing.
 

ShadeDragon

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Sounds cool, if a bit ambitious.

Would make for some sweet eu4 conversions.
 

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Rajas of India should help with limiting cross-Atlantic relations with their diplomatic distance meter they're implementing. I've been wanting to play as Native Americans though so I look forward to trying this out.
 

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Notgnirracen I think it is a good idea to mantain the two oceans separate. If there were a path to go normally on ship from east to west, the old worlders would just stomp the american natives. Anyway, this could change with the new supply mechanic of Roi. The objective is to mantain as little contact as possible, as America and Europe, in the middle ages, functioned like two separate worlds.

Astanna The idea is just to add America without cutting anything off. The map had europe cut off to make the image smaller.

Enlil I hope it works with ROI's map, because thats what i am aiming for.

beartjah The thing is that contact between both continents during the middle age was, at most, limited. Opening the possibility to bring ships from europe to america would give the formers quite an advantage. For me the ideal mechanism would be: 1 - navies could have admirals, 2- There would be sea zones that could only be traversed by navies with an admiral with a special trait (like navigator, or explorer), 3- Naval attrition and naval suppliy zones, so european navies in america get a lot of attrition by beign so far from their ports. This could maybe be made by events but i find it too artificial.

ShadeDragon Once the 867 set up and the contact and religious mechanisms are made, eu4 conversions would be a priority. The boring enhanced new world that converted sunset invasion games got is one of the reasons that i want to provide a better America in CK2.

JGBeagle That feature will help a lot, i have been waiting for it for a long time.

insanelyapple and Jango40 Thanks, Hope i can make this work.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Right now i am working on the map, i'm aiming to have a working terrain layout and some screenshots, by next week.
 

roplox

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How many provinces are planned for America? Just asking because too many provinces would make my Computer cry :huh:
 

beartjah

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Notgnirracen I think it is a good idea to mantain the two oceans separate. If there were a path to go normally on ship from east to west, the old worlders would just stomp the american natives. Anyway, this could change with the new supply mechanic of Roi. The objective is to mantain as little contact as possible, as America and Europe, in the middle ages, functioned like two separate worlds.

beartjah The thing is that contact between both continents during the middle age was, at most, limited. Opening the possibility to bring ships from europe to america would give the formers quite an advantage. For me the ideal mechanism would be: 1 - navies could have admirals, 2- There would be sea zones that could only be traversed by navies with an admiral with a special trait (like navigator, or explorer), 3- Naval attrition and naval suppliy zones, so european navies in america get a lot of attrition by beign so far from their ports. This could maybe be made by events but i find it too artificial.

I'm not certain whether it would be possible to make accesibility to a sea zone dependent on traits. Perhaps something is possible with the trait reducing attrition (and possibly making the atlantic larger if the attrition isn't enough to make a voyage an extreme investment to get anything alive on the other side), so that those characters are naturally more useful for the voyage. About those events: I think the AGOT mod did something like that for one specific sea zone, perhaps having such an event for a boatload of seazones between europe and america can do the trick, but yes, it is a bit artificial...

Though thinking about it, the attrition dependence might not be that good of an idea. I did hear about crusades being exempt, and, since they function the same way, the player could use a jihad or a (norse) great holy war to get around the attrition. There was also something with raiders.

So I think it will probably be waiting till ROI comes out and we see how the attrition will exactly work, and how severe it will be. Only then can anyone know whether using that system over the system given in the OP will be a good idea

ShadeDragon Once the 867 set up and the contact and religious mechanisms are made, eu4 conversions would be a priority. The boring enhanced new world that converted sunset invasion games got is one of the reasons that i want to provide a better America in CK2.
Just one quick question, if you are only going to make an 876 start for the mod at first (which this seems to imply, but I could be wrong), will you make a copy of it in a 1066 start date, for those among us who don't own TOG? (assuming that isn't going to be a huge amount of work...)
 
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TheWolfe

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This mod looks like it will be fantastic, and I'm not sure if its possible but maybe you could connect the two oceans together using a major river, near Iceland, allowing Norse pagans to cross but not Christians or Muslims. Using that system you might also be able to mod in a trait that allows rulers to navigate major rivers.
 

NeoT

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roplox One of my main concerns about this mod is that i expect to add like 150 new provinces, maybe even 200. I know that ROI will add like 300 and will make extremely fast speed like 30% slower (some dev posted something about that i think).I expect it's max speed would be like the actual Very Fast Speed. But there's also the possibilty that it will slow down so much that it would become unplayable.

beartjah I don't think there would be any problem with having the same set up of 867 in 1066. I'll probably begin working on 1066 as soon as the contact mechanisms are made.

TheWolfe I have also thought about puting a "major river" between Iceland and Greenland, but i don't want every single norse pagan beign able to travel to america. 867 is a messy starting point, i don't think it would seem natural that the count of dublin and every other norse ruler start making trips to America. I think a possibility is to make major rives passable only with special traits, not linked to religion (But that would take away the norse hability to travel through the russian rivers and such). Anyway i think it might be a good possibility.

Darkgamma Thanks for the support.

Enlil Thanks. Right now i'm working with the map, once ROI comes out, i'll have a better idea how to proceed, i'll let you know if i need something in particular. Anyway, any help regarding the 867 AD set up (what nations existed, who where the rulers, what religion they had, etc.) would be greatly appreciated as sources from that time are hard to find.

Here is a little something for now. I Hope to have a complete map with the province layout by Sunday.

Map.bmp
(I still have to modify the frame so it doesn't cut the map in half)
 

Enlil

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Enlil Thanks. Right now i'm working with the map, once ROI comes out, i'll have a better idea how to proceed, i'll let you know if i need something in particular. Anyway, any help regarding the 867 AD set up (what nations existed, who where the rulers, what religion they had, etc.) would be greatly appreciated as sources from that time are hard to find.

At the Old Gods start, powers like Aztecs and Incas didn't exist.

North America:

East:

Hopewell: (200 BC - 500 A.D.)
Region: Eastern U.S.
They still existed past this time, but they were no longer building mounds, or making advancements, by 867, they would be almost completely assimilated into the Late Woodland Culture.

Late Woodland - (500 A.D. - 1000 A.D.)
Region : Similar to Hopewell
Smaller cities than the Hopewell, less of architecture, huge sphere of influence.

Coles Greek Culture- ( 800 A.D. - 1200 A.D. )
Region:
Coles_Creek_culture_map_HRoe_2010.jpg

Ruled large and culturally sophisticated city states, (that's where the Greek came from)


Mossy Grove Culture ( 600 A.D. - 920 A.D.)

Existed right above the Coles Greek Culture

Caddoans ( 800 A.D. - present )

Regions:
Eastern Oklahoma, Western Arkansas, Northeast Texas, and Northwest Louisiana

Very large culture, language branches exist today.

Alachua ( 600 - 1700 )

Region : Northern Florida

Minor culture most likely from Georgia

Weeden (500 - 1200 )
Region: Southern Georgia and Alabama

Characteristic buildings and pottery, Hopewell successors

Plum Bayou (650 - 1050 )

Region: East - Central Arkansas

Very religious being one of the first to build ceremonial community centers with Platform Mounds

Oneoto: (900 - 1650 )

Region: Both Michigans and Wisconsin
 

Fewrfreyut

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So, you've made my day by stating that you are attempting to add the Americas WITHOUT cutting off any of the patch 2.0.1 map. You, sir, are a God.
 

NeoT

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Enlil Thanks for the research. Do you have anything of 800 a.d. New England?. Besides the iroquis that seem to have been in the same place since the late woodland era, i don't have much.

Fewrfreyut I actually want to add America to the new Roi map, so you could eventually make a indian buddhist dinasty travel all over the world and maybe even journey to the Americas (Even though that would be quite difficult)

I have some progress with the mesoamerica map, let me know what you think

2OGy9xu.png
 

PyroAce2

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At the Old Gods start, powers like Aztecs and Incas didn't exist.

North America:

East:

Hopewell: (200 BC - 500 A.D.)
Region: Eastern U.S.
They still existed past this time, but they were no longer building mounds, or making advancements, by 867, they would be almost completely assimilated into the Late Woodland Culture.

Late Woodland - (500 A.D. - 1000 A.D.)
Region : Similar to Hopewell
Smaller cities than the Hopewell, less of architecture, huge sphere of influence.

Coles Greek Culture- ( 800 A.D. - 1200 A.D. )
Region:
Coles_Creek_culture_map_HRoe_2010.jpg

Ruled large and culturally sophisticated city states, (that's where the Greek came from)


Mossy Grove Culture ( 600 A.D. - 920 A.D.)

Existed right above the Coles Greek Culture

Caddoans ( 800 A.D. - present )

Regions:
Eastern Oklahoma, Western Arkansas, Northeast Texas, and Northwest Louisiana

Very large culture, language branches exist today.

Alachua ( 600 - 1700 )

Region : Northern Florida

Minor culture most likely from Georgia

Weeden (500 - 1200 )
Region: Southern Georgia and Alabama

Characteristic buildings and pottery, Hopewell successors

Plum Bayou (650 - 1050 )

Region: East - Central Arkansas

Very religious being one of the first to build ceremonial community centers with Platform Mounds

Oneoto: (900 - 1650 )

Region: Both Michigans and Wisconsin

I think its Coles Creek Culture, rather than Greek.