"Sunflower" (patch 1.2) released! [checksum: bb23]

tom_jones

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Actually, given that I know how the code works; it does.
My statement you're quoting has two parts: "unless things are broken it doesn't explain why #1 the AI produces a shit ton of motorized and no tanks at all and #2 it is taking years to actually upgrade these divisions to tanks"

So, allow me clarify; does knowing how the code works somehow also explain that the AI sitting on a pile of motorized divisions for literally years and not upgrading these divisions to medium tank template, despite having research for medium tanks long completed, and despite the upgrade to medium tanks being supposedly the reason these divisions were made in the first place ... isn't severely broken behavior? Is that the way you intended the AI to act?

upload_2016-9-20_12-51-14.png


Note the game date. The US only just started to make medium tanks, literally 3 game months ago. I.e. in autumn 1943.

It is possible it is not the only issue, but given that was the only major change to that system when SOV started going motorized crazy, it seems likely that both my guess about the error is correct enough that the proposed solution would improve the situation a lot.
I can't help but be skeptical about the proposed solution because this behavior --coming from the default production script, after all-- at the moment affects practically every nation in the game, which is something specialized production script for the USSR, or even all majors, isn't going to fix. Exhibit A:

upload_2016-9-20_12-35-59.png


Man, these Greeks sure love their trucks, don't they.

Also, if the error is caused by the AI thinking motorized division is a better candidate for a tank division than an actual tank division, how is a specialized template design script going to prevent this behavior any better than the generic one?

specialized template script: "this is how you make a tank division. this is how you make a motorized division"
game: "yes boss! *makes templates a told*"
production script: "make me 10 tank divisions, and 10 motorized divisions"
game: "yes boss! *produces 10 divisions with motorized template and another 10 divisions with motorized template*"

As such, I think a much better idea would be to ensure when the AI matches templates it starts with to concepts like 'tank division' the end results is a template that actually has some tanks in it, vs one that has none. Again, because it should be a no-brainer and because it's a game-wide behavior, not something limited to just single nation. And it saves you having to make these specialized template scripts as a bonus, too.
 
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SteelVolt

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My statement you're quoting has two parts: "unless things are broken it doesn't explain why #1 the AI produces a shit ton of motorized and no tanks at all and #2 it is taking years to actually upgrade these divisions to tanks"
I know. From a technical point of view they are much more related than they may seem.

So, allow me clarify; does knowing how the code works somehow also explain that the AI sitting on a pile of motorized divisions for literally years and not upgrading these divisions to medium tank template, despite having research for medium tanks long completed, and despite the upgrade to medium tanks being supposedly the reason these divisions were made in the first place ... isn't severely broken behavior?
Never said that it works for SOV. The problem is that when scripting the template design setup, the focus was getting Germany right. The result has been that other countries have been left with sub-par behaviour.

Is that the way you intended the AI to act?
Obviously not. The big issue is all countries are using a script balanced for Germanys setup. It used to have a similar impact on most countries, but the time has clearly come to make specialized scripts at least for all the important majors. This step needs to be taken before looking too much into other potential issues.
 
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tom_jones

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Obviously not. The big issue is all countries are using a script balanced for Germanys setup. It used to have a similar impact on most countries, but the time has clearly come to make specialized scripts at least for all the important majors. This step needs to be taken before looking too much into other potential issues.
When you say "the script balanced for Germany setup" what script do you mean, exactly? The division templates, the production script, or something else in the game code proper that we have no access to?

I'm asking because neither template nor production script appears to be anything but generic, and both worked fairly well for all nations until the 1.2 build. And if things got borked in 1.2, I believe this is mainly (if not exclusively) due to changes in how the game determines the 'optimal' template for division type(s), something which I don't think changing either template or production script is going to address.
 

tom_jones

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@SteelVolt

On second thought, after having a look at 1.2 template script couldn't this be the culprit?

Code:
light_armor_default = {
stat_weights = {
  30.00 #-- max_organisation
(..)

this value was bumped from 1.0 in the previos game build. So now the game is going all nuts over the battalions with more organization in them, and the motorized battalion gives something like 3+ points extra org, compared to light tank battalion, so the AI sees something like 90+ points advantage so obv, it's preferring the motorized over light tanks..?
 
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Had a dad

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@SteelVolt

On second thought, after having a look at 1.2 template script couldn't this be the culprit?

Code:
light_armor_default = {
stat_weights = {
  30.00 #-- max_organisation
(..)

this value was bumped from 1.0 in the previos game build. So now the game is going all nuts over the battalions with more organization in them, and the motorized battalion gives something like 3+ points extra org, compared to light tank battalion, so the AI sees something like 90+ points advantage so obv, it's preferring the motorized over light tanks..?
Please submit bug reports for things that appear to be bugs. This thread was announcing the patch, and not a bug report thread.
 

KaeI

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The topic was discussed before the game was launched but will you insert a fuel and supplies system? The AI don't know how to stock before starting a war. It think that every rifle or tank he have must serve for recruiting troop and don't make stock. The only think that can stop him to recruit is it's manpower. If you insert a supplies system, the AI Will understand that rifle are for recruting troop and ammo / fuel are for supply.


Here two screenshot which show the situation. Japan has started the war against China 2 month ago.
Jap equipment.jpg


You can see it lack of everything needed for his army to start to fight, but this don't stop him to recruit 15 devisions. He even have a negatif production for support equipment.


Jap recrutement.jpg

So the Ai think it's good to have a big army without weapon. This could explain why 3 time of 4 I see Japan lost madchoue and Korea. The sole advantage he have against China it's his industry but if he don't equip it's troop China win easy ....
 
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Gort11

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The topic was discussed before the game was launched but will you insert a fuel and supplies system? The AI don't know how to stock before starting a war. It think that every rifle or tank he have must serve for recruiting troop and don't make stock. The only think that can stop him to recruit is it's manpower. If you insert a supplies system, the AI Will understand that rifle are for recruting troop and ammo / fuel are for supply.

"So, the AI doesn't know how to handle the systems of the game. I know what will help - add more systems!"
 
Sep 3, 2016
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As much as I admire the work that has been done so far on HOI4 I can honestly say that this is not a WW2 game anymore in regards to AI behaviour on a historically focused campaign.
I have tried this new upgrade through two campaigns in order to check its historical accuracy until 1942: one with GERMANY and the other with ROMANIA. (please do not take the following as insults as I am providing a feedback in the hope that within the near future more focus would be placed upon these aspects)
-> Italy still gets invaded via sea by Britain and France
-> Romania is split up between Hungary, Bulgaria and USSR as it refused both Soviet and Hungarian demands (while playing GER, of course)
-> Canada piles up about 5-7 division in the middle of the Saharan Desert (improvement to what it was before but still unrealistic)
-> Japan either loses the war in China entirely or it struggles in a WW1 manner until 1941
-> Japan sends around 22 division to East Africa instead while it is still fighting in China
-> AI Germany keeps failing to take Norway as ever before
-> The German-Allied war in the West always seems like a re-enactment of WW1 where AI Germany loses half a million men in hopeless frontal attacks (nowhere near to what Manstein had in mind in 1940)
-> Netherlands, although capitulated manages to mobilize around 10 division in Northern France to defend Paris
-> By the time AI Germany gets to Barbarossa, it is a shipwreck with little or no airforce, division at 20% strenght and an Atlantic war which had been lost after only 2 weeks from the start of the war
 
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sharcruiser

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Dear Sirs,
I enjoy the update, but there is only one minor major issue.
The game crashes when I try to join my Fella's multiplayer game.
He experiences the same problem as me.
I do not know a solution to this myself, but I hope you'll help me.

Thank you,
sharcruiser
 

podcat

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Dear Sirs,
I enjoy the update, but there is only one minor major issue.
The game crashes when I try to join my Fella's multiplayer game.
He experiences the same problem as me.
I do not know a solution to this myself, but I hope you'll help me.

Thank you,
sharcruiser
are you trying to join through hotjoin (and maybe by entering his server id manually?) if so make sure he has hotjoin enabled. Perhaps this is the cause?
 
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Paule3000

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I therefore request that is corrected to 1.3, if possible, when creating a country, it is not fragmented pieces in 1000, ...

I agree, 1000 pieces is a bit too much ;-) but historically there have always been, and there still are, international enclaves and exclaves, like Ostpreussen after 1919, as one of many historic examples. So it's quite realistic if this happens at peace conferences in the game.
 

Dalwin

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Whoopee ! A little advice from Steam, tried something (which I believe I tried yesterday) and it worked. 1.2 uploaded.

So far mostly good, however:
  • Okay, so Japan has made peace with China, but how have they got volunteers to Belgium* ?
  • South Africa seems to have sent me 20+ 'divisions' within a couple of weeks of the DoW and has another 10 - 15 in reserve. Historically they could field like 9 brigades at this point and each of those a combination of reservist infantry and full time artillery and engineers.
  • The Sahara is blocked, but that seems to be a result of starting from a 1.1.0 save. The mod I used for that isn't compatible.
  • The Polish Navy seems to have survived the fall of Poland, but seems to be sitting at anchor off Danzig, with part of the German Navy in Baltic ports. Mutually ignoring each other as far as I can tell. Maybe they should head for the UK before they run out of food and fuel. Either that or be surrendered to the German Navy.
If the mod you use is No Man's Land, it is compatible, but only for new games started in 1.2. You cannot bring a game using NML forward from 1.1 to 1.2.
 

Tisifoni12

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I played that game through to a point where:
  • France had fallen to Italy, outflanked on the Mediterranean coast and engulfed. Germany took Benelux and Denmark. The UK (me) evacuated from Belgium embarrassingly early as there was a definite gap between the fall of France and that of Belgium and the Netherlands.
  • The UK (me) had taken East Africa and Libya. Only a couple of Italian divisions in Libya. France had become a major commitment I guess.
  • Japan had conquered China and there was a sort of stand-off along the Burma - China border. Japan had declared war, but little was happening. I think maybe Japan was focused on taking Dutch territory.
  • Germany, had invaded Norway and declared war on the USSR, but that front didn't seem to be moving.
  • The UK took Sicily, Sardinia, invaded Italy at Salerno. Then with that front stationary, landed troops at Anzio. The Italians pulled a lot of their troops out up the Adriatic coast of Italy, but 15 divisions were caught and eliminated. Separately the Australian AI liberated Albania.
  • With Bulgaria and Yugoslavia neutral Greece joined the allies (I think negotiated with the Australians ?) and much of the Greek army was transferred to the UK.
  • The UK had liberated Italy as far as Bologna and Florence. Okay Italy controls France, but Mussolini has lost East Africa, Libya, Albania (the Australians may also have taken Rhodes ?), Sardinia, Sicily and 2/3 of the Italian peninsula. I think the Grand Council and the King might think its time to replace him.
Also:
  • What's left of the Polish Navy still anchored off Danzig.
  • A Italian squadron of a battleship, a heavy cruiser and a light cruiser still evading the Mediterranean Fleet in the Red Sea / Arabian Gulf.
  • Having moved some of the UK's Home fleet to the Mediterranean, some German 'surface raiders' had dared to come out and there were brief engagements between these and squadrons of British battleships and cruisers on search and destroy.
Decided to move on and start a game as Japan.
 

tom_jones

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- Fixed a booboo in AI code that counted front size in a way that resulted in min units being one less than intended (sometimes leaving a hole in the front)
Made unit controller more reluctant to leave empty front provinces

@podcat I don't know if it's related to these changes, but the 1.2 AI seems to have gotten considerably worse in keeping its fronts manned along the full length. This is most easily noticeable during sino-japanese war (and a big factor why currently Japan is doing so badly there) but the Japan AI there is playing nearly suicidal -- like, routinely leaving gaps not just single but multiple provinces large, ignoring enemy units which start to eat these parts away, pushing into enemy territory with single units and widening front by 3-4 provinces when it already doesn't have enough units to cover the existing line... all this while it keeps planning pointless invasions in various other places of China, and pulling the units from existing fronts, to send them there. I'm saying "pointless" because if the AI already doesn't have it's existing front lines covered (and it should be well aware of this) what does it think it's going to achieve by opening _even more_ fronts it cannot staff? This all inevitably ends with multiple units getting cut off/surrounded and wiped, and in China pushing through handily left holes all way to Korea.

edit: a quick example of this:

upload_2016-9-21_11-53-28.png


Note, Japan has 25 units assigned to what's now 22 provinces wide front (it used to be less, couple weeks earlier) You'd think, more than enough; and yet some 8-10 of these provinces are left empty -- there was a hole some 3 provinces wide left initially when the front reached the river south. And then the Chinese units pushed into it and are now as far as Beijing (which was left undefended, too) while the Japan AI seems completely oblivious, and the one cavalry unit they have placed nearby is giving the Chinese two thumbs up, as they pass it unopposed o_O
 
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podcat

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@podcat I don't know if it's related to these changes, but the 1.2 AI seems to have gotten considerably worse in keeping its fronts manned along the full length. This is most easily noticeable during sino-japanese war (and a big factor why currently Japan is doing so badly there) but the Japan AI there is playing nearly suicidal -- like, routinely leaving gaps not just single but multiple provinces large, ignoring enemy units which start to eat these parts away, pushing into enemy territory with single units and widening front by 3-4 provinces when it already doesn't have enough units to cover the existing line... all this while it keeps planning pointless invasions in various other places of China, and pulling the units from existing fronts, to send them there. I'm saying "pointless" because if the AI already doesn't have it's existing front lines covered (and it should be well aware of this) what does it think it's going to achieve by opening _even more_ fronts it cannot staff? This all inevitably ends with multiple units getting cut off/surrounded and wiped, and in China pushing through handily left holes all way to Korea.

edit: a quick example of this:

View attachment 207243

Note, Japan has 25 units assigned to what's now 22 provinces wide front (it used to be less, couple weeks earlier) You'd think, more than enough; and yet some 8-10 of these provinces are left empty -- there was a hole some 3 provinces wide left initially when the front reached the river south. And then the Chinese units pushed into it and are now as far as Beijing (which was left undefended, too) while the Japan AI seems completely oblivious, and the one cavalry unit they have placed nearby is giving the Chinese two thumbs up, as they pass it unopposed o_O

at this point its best to make proper bug reports in the bug report forum, this thread isnt for that. For this one supplying a savegame where after loading we can see the ai take a province which widens the front too much reliabily would make it faster and easier to turn into an internal bug report.
 
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Had a dad

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The names for Fascist leaders of the new nations are oddly English. "John Taylor" and such, which is odd for Cambodia, Georgia, Laos, others, ect And there is a "?" mark in the middle of the name of the Fascist Vietnamese leader.
As I said not long ago, and podcat just reiterated, this is not the place to report bugs. Please visit the bug forum and submit bugs there
 

podcat

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RELee

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We should click a P-51. It's an Anglo hybrid.
 
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Tisifoni12

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In latest game as Japan. Made China a puppet state, defeated the warlords, all territory going to the Reformed Nationalist Chinese. Left the Communists (something to keep the Nationalists focused and take their minds off throwing off Japanese 'influence'). Formed own faction. Got control of French Indo-China and created Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam.

Keeping out of conflicts while I see how the war is panning out for the other factions. Somehow my puppet has gone ahead and contributed a dozen divisions to the axis war effort in Europe and Africa. War has started between Germany and the USSR, but other than Axis Finland capitulating that front has barely moved in six months. The Italians have overrun much of Africa (obviously in thrall to the secret plans of the Heartless Giraffes that are using Italy to gain dominion over Africa).
 
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fredos386

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Is it possible that there is a bug or maybe a change in the attrition system? I tried another Brazil game, took over all south and central america including mexico. But i was taking massive attrition even if with my maintenance companies i was having 0% in the description. I then assaulted USA with 50% less divisions than at the same point in 1.1 Then the massacre, every inch i moved forward my equipment was breaking up like nonsense. Even halting the front and waiting i was taking a massive negative. With 300 factories and nothing else than 125 infantry divisions i couldnt even support them even if they were sitting there doing nothing. It made the game unplayable compared to 1.1. Usually at this point i had 300-400 divisions, with garrisons and MP all over the americas, now all i have is my 125 infantry divisions on like 65% strenght because they are lacking everything. It's literally like if the maintenance companies were not there. I had to quit the game before i throw my laptop through the window.

edit: i stopped my front was from seattle to florida, mostly in regions with no attrition. I have my infantry sitting in the midwest doing nothing and taking massive equipment losses. like -1200/day on infantry weapons (forgot the exact name). I had artillery but i was forced to remove them as even with 30 factories on it alone i had 0 arty in my divisions. With 75 factories doing only rifles while sitting and doing nothing i was even. The second i was pushing the button to start attacking it was going down in flames.