Summary of Supply System

[amgediusjupiter]

Hey guys,

I have just read the DD of the new Supply System. I know its a bit late since the Diary is older
I unfortunately dont have the time to read all the 57 pages of comments to the Diary.
I have some concerns I just want to get sure about that I would like to get to know the game mechanic before d-day

First of all I like the new System of equipment supply makes it easier to micromanage all and know exactly what you need to supply units in provinces. You need resources equipment to build units makes stratetic bombing and factories very interesting to me cause it shows how importent strategic bombing in modern warfare becomes.
For example: If I dont have oil for as italy and I am in war and need desperately tanks (even tho italy is not tankheavy nation). am I capable of building them ? Probably not since I need oil equipment.. So does that mean as Britain I can focus on bombing all oil factorys in german reich to stop germany from building tanks ? If so seems realistic to me.

However, they removed fuel and supplies which confused me. Does that mean tanks can drive deep in enemys territory without the lack of fuel ? As Japan I dont need to get my ships back to ports after battle ? Its odd if so...
From what I have understand we only need the equipment for building units but then without fuel makes it a bit for me personally unrealistic but maybe I got it wrong or they improved smth I dunno.

 

[Ruck]

They didn't removed fuel. In the new system everything is summarized in equipment.

If you produce tanks, than its not only the tanks alone. You do also produce spare parts for example. In real life, many different tank parts had to be exchanged after ca. 100km ( depends on which tank ). All these will be produced with "Tanks"

Also will all the fuel these tanks will need be produced. ( therefore you will need oil )

Now if your tank division is marching, fighting ect. it will use these " tank equipment things ". If you don't have tank equipment anymore, you also don't have fuel and no spare parts and this will mean a bad time for your tank divisions.

I'm really happy about the new system, now we actually have to produce things.

 

[Elwin00]

During the 1st co-op France stream last week Daniel remarked that they "are changing [the supply system] quite a bit" (this video on Twitch at 1:44:33) without providing any more details.

Regarding fuel, units will be losing equipment by various means, fighting, training, perhaps even moving around. I believe this includes tanks. So you will have to manufacture new tanks and that requires oil. The whole complex system of manufacturing tanks, spare parts, replacements, fuel and ammunition is abstracted away into manufacturing simply 'tanks [with accessories]'.

 

[ausfatcat]

During the 1st co-op France stream last week Daniel remarked that they "are changing [the supply system] quite a bit"

I doubt any game mechanics have had anything more than balancing for a few months, , so I doubt it would be a major change with supplies before release (ie no time to bug test it).

 

[LordOfWar16]

Fuel is also reflected in the supply system. The supply cap determins how many troops can be supplied with ammunition, food, water, clothing, spare weapons, fuel etc. Fuel is abstracted, but indirectly it is still a limiting factor. So is oil.

You wont be able to build a massive tank army as a country that A: doesnt have the oil for it, since tanks, ships and planes cost oil and B: because Tank divisions, Ships and Planes take up quiet alot of space in supply regions, naval bases and airbases, which all have a softcap. If you go above that softcap the planes and ships inside will fight worse, to reflect the lack of, well, supplies and Divisions will start taking increased amount of attrition over time.

A country that has basicly unlimited supplies of Oil may be able to pump out alot of tanks, planes and ships, but they wont be able to use them effectively and would rather build up their stockpiles than sending all of them to the front, unless they want their divisions to starve of supplies. Even that may not be a advantage over the enemy, since those tanks still need to be delivered to the front and if Germany for example sinks most of the US convoys for example most of them or even none of them will reach their destination. They could of course increase that softcap to some degree by upgrading or even building new naval/air bases and increasing the infrastructure.

 

[Nicolas I]

They didn't removed fuel...

False ! As you explain yourself fuel is abstracted, so its no more an ingame resource or supply.

...However, they removed fuel and supplies which confused me. Does that mean tanks can drive deep in enemys territory without the lack of fuel ? As Japan I dont need to get my ships back to ports after battle ? Its odd if so...

There is no more fuel, lifetime fuel use is included in the oil cost of the tanks, planes and ships you build. So once built they run on infinite built-in oil.

Some of the (perverse) side effects of this are that if you lose tanks/planes/ships you need more oil, not less, while if you win you need no oil. And if you lose a ship early, you lose the built-in years of oil consumption, as if the huge fleet fuel reservoirs at home instantly disappear when the ship sink, abracadabra !

This explain why there is also an Oil and Logistics megathread of 58 pages to add to the DD 57 ones.

 

[Nicolas I]

...Regarding fuel, units will be losing equipment by various means, fighting, training, perhaps even moving around. I believe this includes tanks. So you will have to manufacture new tanks and that requires oil...

While that abstraction somewhat works for tanks and planes, for capital ships that cannot work as you should replace a whole ship, thus taking years to "refuel".

 

[Kovax]

The production system penalizes output efficiency if you're short on a resource, but doesn't stop production. That means Germany or Italy can run with ZERO oil supplies for the entire war, but their output of units which require fuel will be severely reduced.

In essence, it's being implemented Bass Ackwards, but "in theory" should even out over the long haul. How it functions "in practice" remains to be seen.

 

[Denkt]

Each day each line need access to a certain amount of resources or you get a penalty. To build equipment I a factory need two steel per day. The number of resources needed is a static number, no matter if you produce 1 or 10 equipment I per day you need two steel. So the more effective your factories are the better.

A civilian factory can be traded for eight resources. You need to provide the needed convoys to ship these resources to your factories. If you have states who produce resources you can close your economy so these resources are not put on the market because resources that are put on the market can not be used by its home country no matter if somebody else use these resources or not.

You can build synthetical plants who produce 5 oil and 2 rubber each. This mean even nations such as Germany can have access to oil.

 

[Ruck]

False ! As you explain yourself fuel is abstracted, so its no more an ingame resource or supply.



There is no more fuel, lifetime fuel use is included in the oil cost of the tanks, planes and ships you build. So once built they run on infinite built-in oil.

Some of the (perverse) side effects of this are that if you lose tanks/planes/ships you need more oil, not less, while if you win you need no oil. And if you lose a ship early, you lose the built-in years of oil consumption, as if the huge fleet fuel reservoirs at home instantly disappear when the ship sink, abracadabra !

This explain why there is also an Oil and Logistics megathread of 58 pages to add to the DD 57 ones.

Yes i understand your point, its true that it got abstracted and may look weird, but Oil is anyways important further on. You will need "Tank supply" for just driving around and also if you lost your tanks. This will also mean, that you will need less tank supply if youre winning and smashing through enemy lines, but more tank supply if you are loosing. There is no clear separation between tank spare parts, tanks fuel.

BUT, let us just see how it will works in the finished game.
To be fair, my tanks in HOI-2 never ran out of full, its just easy for an human player, we now that a long war is waiting for us, just do some trade with venezuela, russia ect.
In Hoi3 ressources already were mega mega easy to handle, nothing ran out ever, just with auto trade.

From the WWW´s I have the "feeling" that we even might have to watch out a little bit more for oil, than we had ever before in HOI2 or HOI3.

The game wont be the most heavy world war simulation that ever existed and it was never the intention from devs to do so.
There are games like this, like f.e. "War in the East", but just look how many copys got sold, there are not many people who wants to study a game for about 1 week, before they can have some fun..... And although HOI4 will not be an arcade game, its sort of in the middle between these extremes and I think thats a good thing.

Die goldene Mitte halt

 

[Denkt]

The game wont be the most heavy world war simulation that ever existed and it was never the intention from devs to do so.

This

It is designed as a grand strategy game and take huge liberties then it comes to history because history may not make the best games

 

[JRiemer]

Some people won't be happy until you need to produce every square of latrine paper in every box of rations.

 

[Nicolas I]

Some people won't be happy until you need to produce every square of latrine paper in every box of rations.

In fact I am often against people who want to include each tiny detail. There is War in the East (which is a good game) for those who like more logistic details.

But fuel was NOT a tiny detail of WW2, it played a major role, a leading role, an overriding role.

I have no problem with some shortcuts or abstraction for the sake of gameplay. But almost no oil was needed to build tanks/planes/ships, fuel was needed to operate them. Now they have completely reversed that, you need oil to build but none to operate. As someone politely said, it's bass backwards.

 

[JRiemer]

In fact I am often against people who want to include each tiny detail. There is War in the East (which is a good game) for those who like more logistic details.

But fuel was NOT a tiny detail of WW2, it played a major role, a leading role, an overriding role.

I understand the gripes about lack of fuel resources in respect to ships, but not so much for tanks and other vehicles. You'll still need oil throughout the service life of your tanks and planes, with the fuel coming through the supply system and its' refinement and processing being represented by the oil requirement in the production tab.

Now for ships you don't need to have a constant oil requirement, that's where I can understand being upset.

 

[Kaszub]

In fact I am often against people who want to include each tiny detail. There is War in the East (which is a good game) for those who like more logistic details.

But fuel was NOT a tiny detail of WW2, it played a major role, a leading role, an overriding role.

I have no problem with some shortcuts or abstraction for the sake of gameplay. But almost no oil was needed to build tanks/planes/ships, fuel was needed to operate them. Now they have completely reversed that, you need oil to build but none to operate. As someone politely said, it's bass backwards.

This.

 

[Kovax]

Even if they roll supplies and fuel into one figure for simplicity, logistics were still a critical concern in the real war, and were an overriding factor in slowing the Axis advance in North Africa, into the Soviet Union, and eventually across the board. Lack of oil made it all but impossible for them to properly train pilots and tankers and still have sufficient fuel at the front to fight at all. Oil, fuel, and logistics were decisive factors, not the same as simulating "every square of latrine paper".

Building tanks, planes, and ships with full fuel tanks, and replacing them when they wear out or run dry, is a radical abstraction I can do without. I won't go into further detail, because there's already a pinned topic for this.

 

[Nicolas I]

I understand the gripes about lack of fuel resources in respect to ships, but not so much for tanks and other vehicles. You'll still need oil throughout the service life of your tanks and planes, with the fuel coming through the supply system and its' refinement and processing being represented by the oil requirement in the production tab.

Now for ships you don't need to have a constant oil requirement, that's where I can understand being upset.

Exactly what I said:

While that abstraction somewhat works for tanks and planes, for capital ships that cannot work as you should replace a whole ship, thus taking years to "refuel".

It's not about historical accuracy, it's about changing the gameplay. For exemple as Japan I should be able to build capital ships without oil, but need oil after that to operate them or they be idle in ports. Then the imperious need for conquering resources. As a bonus, this mechanics would be consistent with history.

OK, I will stop here because there is an Oil and Logistics megathread. The OP has been answered and offered a range of arguments.

 

[amgediusjupiter]

Yes i understand your point, its true that it got abstracted and may look weird, but Oil is anyways important further on. You will need "Tank supply" for just driving around and also if you lost your tanks. This will also mean, that you will need less tank supply if youre winning and smashing through enemy lines, but more tank supply if you are loosing. There is no clear separation between tank spare parts, tanks fuel.

if you mind some noob question:
why is it so that you dont need oil for the tanks if you win ? Doesnt make sense to me
What does the term "WWW" mean and "arcade game" ?

 

[Mandraug]

if you mind some noob question:
why is it so that you dont need oil for the tanks if you win ? Doesnt make sense to me
What does the term "WWW" mean and "arcade game" ?

Given what we know about the equipment mechanics of the game, oil is needed to produce tanks, tanks are sent to equip tank battalions in your divisions and are destroyed in battles or by attrition. The more tanks you lose in a battle (or to attrition) the more replacements you need to keep your division(s) equipped and thus the more oil you will need to consume.

So, if my armoured division fights yours and you destroy all my armour with no losses on your side, then: your division gets to drive towards my capital at no extra oil cost to you, while my oil need goes up as I need to replenish my division with new tanks. If this does not make sense to you, you are right. Many of us believe that fuel needs to be modelled separately from tank replacements, in order to accurately capture strategic-level dynamics of fuel need, consumption &c., even in the abstract.

WWW is "World War Wednesday" the weekly broadcast of HOI4 gameplay from Paradox on Twitch and later on Youtube. I'll leave "arcade game" for some more experienced gamer, since they can probably give a more accurate definition than me.

EDIT: Oh, and this discussion really belongs into the oil & logistics megathread, stickied at the top of the hoi4 forum.

 

[Nicolas I]

if you mind some noob question:
why is it so that you dont need oil for the tanks if you win ? Doesnt make sense to me
What does the term "WWW" mean and "arcade game" ?

As oil is abstracted to be included when you build a tank, so as long as the tank is not destroyed it can run without fuel.

In the proposed system - that I think have weaknesses - the idea is that when you lose tanks you need to build new ones, which require oil, then "kind of" simulating oil consumption.

WWW = World War Wednesday, the twitch streams showing gameplay by developers. Old ones are also found on Youtube Paradox Extra account.

Arcade mode was an "more easy" option in HOI3 where supplies would arrive directly to your troops (disabling the normal supply system with its constraints).

EDIT: ninja'ed by Mandraug