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Jako473

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Altmer are not native to High Rock, and Elves had nothing to do with the Adamantine, Red Mountain, and Throat of the World towers, which were largely formed by the Aedra before elves were even a thing.

I think that is untrue. The Dawn Era is well before the Merethic Era, which starts with Direnni being constructed... If we believe Orgnum and the Redguards, then Orgnum was around during The Beginning and/or Creation. This doesn't make sense, because why would he then become a wealthy Aldmeris Nobleman? No, Orgnum was created with other Elf ancestors, and this dates him and Auri-El to have been manifested someway in Ruin- Worlds End, where many realms came into and out of existence. They lived as Ehlnofey after creation, but were fellow et'Adans like Magnus or The Divines.

During Lorkhan's Plan and the Great Construction, Auri-El is offered to become King of the new "realm", so he decides to join the project. After this a lot of shit happens, and the project is disastrous, and as we know, the Aedra regret their decision and Auri-El even tries to get Anu to accept him and his people back, because they hated existence, but chose to accept to live in Nirn unlike Mundus who like the majority of Et'ada chose to leave to escape and shatter the very universe.

Now this is all very mystical and whatnot, but Anuiel gave Auri-El a "bow and shield" to protect his people and then Auri-El went on to create Aldmeris, Altmor, and Old Ehlnofey. All the "highborn" Ehlhofey hated Lorkhan for making such a stupid plan and tricking them into living, but he found solace among "the Wanderers" , the ancestors of men, and wound up becoming a symbol for them. A leader of sorts. Sometime after this obvious war starts over the singular continent, and ends up shattering the whole world. This is all good myth, but before the shattering and before Trinnimac waged war with Lorkhan Orgnum somehow had enough followers and had enough "money"(translated:unknown power) to pose a threat.

They then exile him to Pyandonea after a rebellion, behind a "veil of mist" separated from the main continent. I first thought this just meant it was its own island, but is it possible they actually just made a gigantic wall similar to the ghost-fence, but was metaphysical in nature, but the shattering obstructed this? The Maormer did not exist at this point I think, or were just now being created. He never messed with Almderis again when he was banished, so this is why he has an absence in the wars of Auri-El and Lorkhan. He probably did not care, and went on too create his own stuff or scheme.

My previous thoughts were negligent because I hadn't considered Orgnum being this old. Orgnum may nor may not have been at the convention that Auri-El obviously led, that condemned Lorkhan and also created the Direnni tower. I would wager he was, though, because the task of setting the physical, temporal, spiritual, and magical elements of Nirn would be a huge task and would need all et'Ada that still existed to be there. Before this, though, all of that was happening across varying planes. Tamriel didn't really exist. It was all Mundus. Time wasn't recorded and these events were all metaphysical while the same time being literal.

This seems so strange. He is a literal god, perhaps the Orgnum we know of today is a manifestation of him, and he ascended in an unknown time? Or perhaps his hatred for Auri-El burns so much that he would exist far past any of the others in the mortal plane just to destroy all of his creations and everything he loves as an aetheral being, but his attempts are just like, really shallow. He is immortal, so he must be used to time and space not really existing, and maybe that is why he does random things and is shrouded in mystery? I have no idea, the more I read, the more its obviously written to be confusing and there's alot of underground work, but its just so intriguing. What is this guy's deal?
 
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EmperorG

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Or it could be the writers didn't figure out what to do with him yet until recently, and the earlier stuff might not be entirely in sync with the newer stuff. Which creates the confusion, kinda like a tv show where how a character acts in the pilot and in later seasons are completely different to the point they might not even seem to be the same person.
 
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Arakhor

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Or maybe he's simply a ridiculously-long lived mer, like Divayth Fyr, and has excellent publicity, making him out to be a god.
 
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Neoman

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Another idea is possibly the entire island was put into some sort of plane warp, not exactly its own plane like daedra have but rather in a limbo-like area.

Unless Bethesda does more retconning, a ghost fence-like device required the power of about three demi-gods just to keep one demi-god mostly trapped away, that's a lot of power for a barrier.

Since Orgnum is (IMO) more powerful than the likes of Dagoth Ur some other means would be needed to trap him away, one that isn't linked to the life force of other immortals. Given the Psijic Order managed to make themselves and their home disappear from known existence and can appear, disappear, predict future events and halt the flow of time at will I don't think it's too far fetched that they managed to banish an entire sub-continent to some sort of pocket limbo dimension where it still exists on Mundus but isn't reachable by normal means.

Overall though Elder Scrolls lore is funny because it's set up to where nothing is concrete due to the nature of the Elder Scrolls and its effects on time-space, not even the past. Then there's the dragon breaks... :p
 
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aruon

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Or maybe he's simply a ridiculously-long lived mer, like Divayth Fyr, and has excellent publicity, making him out to be a god.

rich as hell with a literally unlimited source of money, archmage level magical skill (probably with lost aldmeri and maybe ehlnofey knowledge to boot), cult of personality religion, his own race... sounds about right.
 

TheLastScythian

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"King/Queen of Morrowind" was not invented until Tiber Septim conquered Morrowind, correct?
Wouldn't it be more 'accurate' to have the Temple rule over the Great Houses?

For it to be fully 'accurate' in that sense, you'd have to have the Almsivi in person, but the developers' stance on that has been stated a million times already..

Anyways, I'd put forward the suggestion that the Tribunal Temple actually rule over Morrowind's Great Houses during the current start dates, and then in turn, the "King" rank title for Dunmer be changed from "High King" to "Hortator" - in the case that feudal Great Houses overthrow Temple authority in Morrowind and establish feudal authority, the leader would be a Hortator, leader of the houses.
Though, has this been discussed before?
 

WildPeacock

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"King/Queen of Morrowind" was not invented until Tiber Septim conquered Morrowind, correct?
Wouldn't it be more 'accurate' to have the Temple rule over the Great Houses?

For it to be fully 'accurate' in that sense, you'd have to have the Almsivi in person, but the developers' stance on that has been stated a million times already..

Anyways, I'd put forward the suggestion that the Tribunal Temple actually rule over Morrowind's Great Houses during the current start dates, and then in turn, the "King" rank title for Dunmer be changed from "High King" to "Hortator" - in the case that feudal Great Houses overthrow Temple authority in Morrowind and establish feudal authority, the leader would be a Hortator, leader of the houses.
Though, has this been discussed before?

Actually, there are diverse instances of Kings and Queens of Morrowind. Berenziah's parents for intance, right before Tiber's invasion, were Kings of Mournhold. The imperial administrative districts are ruled by Grand Dukes
 

kart72

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Well it would be nice if we could get a control-over-Nirn system for Daedric Princes.
What I mean by this is that (like Ideal Masters) they store piety and when reaching a treshold they move from one level of control-over-Nirn to another.
This means the more rituals to them are made, the more provinces they cult has(doubt if it is posible to script in), the more kings bend heads to them (this isn't a measure of a daedra's power but simply he has a highking doing his bidding and with that dozens of tousands of troops),doing things that please them (hunting, killing undead, seducing flowerbeds, feasting), and the like, the more piety they have, the bigger theyr abilities get and the more demanding they are(balance/lore-wise that one, also the higher theyr control is the more piety they lose monthly to prevent them from just slowly accumulating over centuries with a single group of cabals).
Obviously the more power they have the happier they are (bigger chance of successfully pleading for an artifact) and the more power they are ready to spend(bigger chance of both curses and boons- traits will say what exactly you get).
Additionally a ritual which invites the daedra to your court (to Nirn if his power level is zero), this would mean that they see you as champion(but don't have 200 stats each obviously) and get happy/sad depending on your actions. And increases chance or even downright enables having events changing your personality(a couple dinners with uncle Sheo can have a strange effect on one's mind)
Problem is with piety gatheering and balancing it. How about making an event which when a king takes over and has that religion (or has at least 2 vassals with it) gets to choose: embrace the cult, tolerate it, ban it (relations, revolts and the like can occur). Depending on this Daedric prince gets a trait eg. Kingdoms possessed(bad word needs change) ''2''. There are two high kingdoms (like Skyrim not like Whiterun, game wouldn't be able to survive so much events and you would eradicate balance) in which the king, and thus people, openly worship this daedra, stats +5, monthly piety +1. This would also bring depth to playing a cultist (or any foreign religion) conqueror(or more likely his son) like black dragon. You take the throne after dad left this world and you choose religion for your country. Provinces or vassals with wrong religion have a chance (again balance must be found) to revolt or accept f they revolt they get bonus troops per province (or smth like that to simulate a nation/people going to war as a whole). Meantime those with correct religion either accept or rejoice( a hidden flag in case the aforementiond revolt fires you get troops).
AND LASTLY: immortals shouldn't get stressed, depressed (unless something like an honourable, dilligent, just king has enough courting/scheming/giving justice/ listening about pigs) or infirm. Lunacy is probable(but shold be curable) and so is incapability (daedras with no control in Nirn could get it instantly as a side note). They shouldn't die of stress, suicide, infirm and sickly/in bed. Also sometimes some rumours shouldn't apply to them (eg. Orgnum the Divine who just conquered the enirety of Pyandoneia is a weak ruler. How?)
 

Zsrai

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Immortals should definitely still get stressed and depressed, but they shouldn't die from it I agree. Or become infirm, I'd say. Incapable should happen from getting hit in the head in battle and similar events, but not through "natural" means.
 

TheLastScythian

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Actually, there are diverse instances of Kings and Queens of Morrowind. Berenziah's parents for intance, right before Tiber's invasion, were Kings of Mournhold. The imperial administrative districts are ruled by Grand Dukes
Besides Barenziah being called a "princess", there seems to be nothing to suggest that Morrowind had mortal, feudal-style monarchies before Tiber's invasion.
The actual lore I remember says that she was born to powerful nobles of Mournhold, perhaps "princess" isn't so literal. It's like calling a powerful noble a "prince" when he is not in fact a son of a monarch.

Grand Dukes of Imperial Districts? I'm fairly sure that's definitively said to be introduced by the Empire, just like the figurehead monarchy.
The figurehead feudal (really not feudal) system the Empire introduced seems to be more like a bureaucratic infrastructure that allowed them to assert garrison authority over the pre-existing "aristocratic tribal mafia-like bureaucracy" of the Great Houses of Morrowind, who ruled vast, traditional tribal territories under the three god-kings.
 

Arakhor

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Lunacy is curable by powerful mages.
 

WildPeacock

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Besides Barenziah being called a "princess", there seems to be nothing to suggest that Morrowind had mortal, feudal-style monarchies before Tiber's invasion.
The actual lore I remember says that she was born to powerful nobles of Mournhold, perhaps "princess" isn't so literal. It's like calling a powerful noble a "prince" when he is not in fact a son of a monarch.

Grand Dukes of Imperial Districts? I'm fairly sure that's definitively said to be introduced by the Empire, just like the figurehead monarchy.
The figurehead feudal (really not feudal) system the Empire introduced seems to be more like a bureaucratic infrastructure that allowed them to assert garrison authority over the pre-existing "aristocratic tribal mafia-like bureaucracy" of the Great Houses of Morrowind, who ruled vast, traditional tribal territories under the three god-kings.

No, Barenziah's parents (and herself) are explicetely called Kings and Queen. The Daggerfall book "King Edward" also colaborates on this listing the kings of Ebonheart in Morrowind.

What I meant is that what the Imperials introduced were the Imperial Districts, the royal titles existed before the invasion, even trough they might be more cerimonial in nature originally.
 

TheLastScythian

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You're right, but I'd argue all that means is that D_Mournhold and D_Ebonheart simply be known uniquely as kingdoms (minor kingdoms), even when under a liege.
We could expand that to other cities like Narsis and such, but I think Ebonheart and Mournhold were said to be rival capitals and Narsis, Blacklight, Tear etc don't really measure up to them.
 

Athoen

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What about playing with the heart of Lorkhan ? That would be close to god character, but thre are already immortal ones available.
This could allow some kind of immortality without being a spellcaster

With a serie of event the player should acquire the 3 artifacts sunder, keening, wraithguard (I have not checked who among the tribunal and Dagoth Ur is in their possession at the time of the game)
We some land and/or religious head condition he could tap in the power of the heart (with a cooldown, several years) and have a chance to gain 1 attribute point or 0.5 (?) health
The mechanism could be based upon the character's Learning value (do not know how to do this)

There could be a chance of critical failure with the loss of a point.
There could be some event before the use f the heart each time were Dagoth Ur challeges the player and try to get back some of the artefacts. The player could die, but not dagoth as long as the heart exists.

With time the player would have the choice to maintain the tribunal or to make them fall (there might be some problem with the nerevarine events for all I know)

He might even claim to be the nerevarine and revoke the Almsivi religion once he has weakened the 3 gods.
 
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T.SovietComrade

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This wouldn't exactly work with the elven age system, since they're technically already immortal, but die after a while. This isn't really how the heart works either, as one tap would be good enough for 3 people all to become gods. I doubt that such a thing would be included in the mod, though.
 

Arakhor

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Athoen, read the thread title. The Tribunal will never make a personal appearance in the mod, so neither will any way for a different character to repeat the process.
 

kart72

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Just wanted to point out that during the late period of Queen Potema's reign she employed vampires as generals. While people didn't like it (and slowly turned their backs on her) they in a slight way accepted it ( that it was an order of a tyranical monarch sacrificing people to daedra for power helped a lot I guess)
Just pointing out nothing more...
 

housemartell

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People with the immortal trait shouldn't be allowed to marry. Currently, Abnur Tharn and Orgnum endlessly marry random lowborn courtiers even though they can't have children with them.
 
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EmperorG

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People with the immortal trait shouldn't be allowed to marry. Currently, Abnur Tharn and Orgnum endlessly marry random lowborn courtiers even though they can't have children with them.

But wives/husbands are useful for things other than making babies! They give you a useful stat boost that I would hate to lose simply because I can't marry
 
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Wangmaster

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I have a quick suggestion for when/if the Jagged Crown is fully implemented for the King of Skyrim/Wherever: Make it so when a character has the Jagged Crown their character portrait reflects this by having said character wear it in their portrait. I know this is quite a request for what is essentially a small tidbit of flavor, but
I think it could add something neat to a Nord game.
 
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