I want to help brainstorm religious mechanics but I don't know what the current status is. What do the religions currently look like?
Suggestions Thread for Tianxia: Silk Road Expansion
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Mechanics wise or map-wise?
Mechanics wise:
The Chinese religious group contains three religions. Confucian, taoist, amidist. Confucian gives a bonus to diplomacy, taoist to stewardship and Amidist to martial. All three have the ability to designate an heir as per the indian faiths, cannot declare holy wars, but are allowed to wage subjugation wars on all other Chinese faiths. They have difficulty converting each other. Kind of like the Buddhist/Hindu/Jain triumverate India has, but with less ability to flip between at a reasonably fast pace.
Shinto has the Emperor as the religious head. It's a bit more aggressive and can wage holy wars. Heir designation and an intrigue bonus also come along.
The new pagan faiths (Shenist, thanist, Ainu, Muist, Sanahamist, Kaharingan, Melanesian and Bon)are honestly pretty bare-bones. Raiding and attrition basically, which come to think about it makes them about as developed as Suomenusko.
If you want a map I can post that too, but right now I'm falling asleep at my keyboard.
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It would be appealing if the Emperor of China have the power to convert his own religion at will. After all, he is the son of the heavens.
This makes sense, I think I'll add it in. However I'm thinking that doing so will cause a major (-20/-30) loss of relations with the Emperor's vassals, representing the ideological chaos of such an ideological shift, and making only strong emperors consider such a step.
I'm also considering allowing the Emperor to temporarily (3-5 years maybe?) increase his chosen religion's conversion ability at the cost of piety, gold, prestige and moral authority (either all of the four resources or just a few depending on how I find the balance), a la the Tang Dynasty persecution of Buddhists. It should be costly enough that the it won't be used frequently, but always be an option in desperation.
Also: I've added a targeted decision allowing rulers (who aren't Emperors) in the Chinese group who have an adult heir to abdicate their throne.
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Like Forkis said there is a whole new Chinese religious groups that is not too dissimilar to the Indian religions and ten new pagan religions, making a total of thirteen new religions. The Chinese (Daoic) religions which are; Amidism, Confucianism, and Taoism, work much like the Indian (Dharmic) religions including the ability to convert within the religious group and having differing schools of thoughts (though the latter two still have heresies). The new pagan religions are; Ainu, Chinese (Shenism), Dayak (Kaharingan), Japanese (Shinto), Korean (Muism), Melanesian, Ryukyuan, Sanahamism, Tibetan (Bon), and Viet (Thanism). So far, only the Japanese Shinto has been given much attention which combines the elements of Catholicism (WIP), Islam, Norse/Germanic, Mahayana Buddhism, and Amidism. The intent for the other pagan religions (except for Ainu and Melanesian) are to incorporate elements and associate it with either the Daoic or the Dharmic religions; so Shenism, Muism, and Thanism will be associated with Confucianism, Kaharingan and Sanahamism will be associated with Hinduism, Bon will be associated with Vajrayana Buddhism, while Ryukyuan will be special and be like the Cathars or the Messalians somewhat.
For more information about religion, check the second development diary for the Sons of Heaven Project here.
No, it doesn't make gameplay sense nor any historical sense. Mandate of Heaven was more of a retrospective justification rather than an assertion of absolute power like the Renaissance European Divine Rights. The Emperor of China can convert within the Daoic religions like any other Daoic rulers if he meets the requirements to do so or the the religion of his capital if the player owns the Rajas of India like any other rulers. In this aspect, it is unnecessary to divert from the vanilla (remember, the point of this mod is to keep it as vanilla as possible).
Fair enough! I'll leave it in your hands. I still think the religion as-is feels a little barebones, but I suppose a lot of the fleshing out can be done through events.
I absolutely agree, but that is what the Closed Alpha/Closed Beta will be for. To find a way to flesh it out some!
Hmm. So do y'all need some brainstorming for the pagan faiths? The Daoists seem pretty well-done. How "associated" do you want the pagans to be?
Shen seems really interesting. Very communitarian - perhaps an adoption mechanic? And upon reformation I'd definitely give them autocephaly to represent the long-lasting kinship and community focuses in each region. And I don't know how I feel about Shen raiders. The traditional Chinese folk religions that make up Shen exploded into a lot of radically different "salvationist religions," are you planning on drawing from that as Reformation inspiration?
Don't the Ainu people practice koshinto, which is here represented as the unreformed heresy of Shinto?
Ryukyu definitely should be women-centric. Maybe they can have autocephaly if you don't want the Shen to have it, because of the different islands and the different noro priestess traditions. They're rather focused on death and spirits - and I know that there's something interesting that can be done with Mabui - but I don't know what to do about that yet besides interesting event chains.
I have a general idea on what I want to do with the pagan faiths, but I am open to other ideas. Considering this is a suggestion thread, feel free to brainstorm to your content as it may help. In terms of association, I haven't decided yet, but so far I am considering allowing a easier yet restricted conversion from one to another (pagan to Chinese) as well as certain bonuses and similarities.
Adoption is something I am definitely considering (balance and stuff has to be taken into account of course). Unfortunately, autocephaly due to the annoying hard-coding of the Pentarchy (it can be changed, but not without cocking up Eastern Christianity).
This is really iffy since Koshinto itself is a revisionist thing (to an extent). I decided against making Ainu Koshinto, since doing that I would have to take into consideration on what the Ryukyuans would be as well. Another thing is that there were cultural differences which affected how the religion was practiced and in terms of gameplay, the -35 opinion modifier for having a heresy wouldn't really fit in the grand scheme of things.
Ryukyuan will be somewhat like the Cathars and the Messalians in that they will be feminists. Also like the Basque (and the two religions mentioned before), they will have access to Absolute Cognatic as well as the Enatic succession laws. Due to some hard-coding, that is the most I can do in regards to the "women-centric" nature of the Ryukyuan religion.
Hm, alright. Makes sense.
What balance and stuff are you taking into account with adoption? And the hardcoded restrictions on autocephaly totally and unequivocally blows. Is there any way to apply autocephalous patriarchs without impacting the Pentarchy?
That makes sense. So what do you want Ainu to look like? Will it be "associated" with Shinto?
Alright. Is there any way to also force the religious head to be women-only? I think After the End does something similar with the Ursuline religion.
I had some thought on how unique Japanese situation could be represented.
Real Japanese people, the Yamato, came to Japan circa 600 AD, and during Charlemagne star-date Japanese Emperor is still defacto ruler of Japan, but in later startdates, its all about shoguns.
Head of Shinto is The Japanese Emperor, the Tenno/Mikado. It could represented as landless king-tier feudal title, forced into agnatic seniority succession law, and unable to assimilate dejure duchies. That means he could be vassal, like Caliph or Pope. There could probably be agnatic inheritable trait (like sayyid is), "son of Amaterasu", that gives free piety/prestige.
There will be mechanic to prevent this title (k_yamato) from drifting from Yamato dynasty through succession wars or pretender factions. (a lot of NOT = { title = k_yamato } exceptions...)
Japan itself will represented by e_japan title, and if held by member of Yamato dynasty, will also be forced into agnatic seniority, I'll explain why.
Emperorship of Japan was not passed through primogeniture (not until Meji emperor), but by rotation, and the closest accurate representation will be agnatic seniority, not completely accurate, since it will prohibit historical female empresses, but allow sons by matrilinear marriages (who were not allowed!). Shogun and Daimyo, on the other hand, will be allowed all feudal succession laws.
For the length of Heian period, until around ~1200, japanese emperor (k_yamato) was nominal leader of Japan (although there should be superduke vassals of Fujiwara dynasty), and after that date was replaced by shogun, who became defacto monarch of japan. This is similar to Abbasid caliphs, who were at first sovereign rulers, only to be forced to became defacto vassals of various dynasties like Seljuks or Mamluks.
After ~1200, emperors of Japan will no longer be independent rulers, but vassals of shogunate (e_japan).
That transfer of power, could be represented by special faction, called "endorse shogunate" (allowed only if already at lowest crown authourty). If emperor caves in to the demands (or loses faction war. he will be forced to accept if under regency), he will create and grant shogunate (e_japan) to faction leader, and become its vassal.
All direct vassals of emperor woh did not support your faction will get weak claims on e_japan, to represent that they will try to contest it.
If japanese emperor already created e_japan, "endorse shogunate" faction will be disabled, and shogun wannabes will need to wage normal claim wars to get their hands on e_japan. If emperor gets his hand back on shogunate (e_japan), shogunate will effectively end, and imperial power will be restored.
If you are independent japanese-cultured daimyo, you can't create "endorse shogunate" faction, so you could have alternate path: force emperor to become your tributary, get 2000 prestige, and you can enact decision: "emperor makes me shogun". This path will grant all independent (japanese-cultured) daimyo strong claims on shogunate, to represent that they will try to contest it. (if emperor is landless, you don't need to make him tributary, just control kyoto directly or by your vassal, and have 2000 prestige)
japanese culture localisation of rulers will be something like this:
(very placeholder-ish)
emperor tier - Taikun? Shogun?
king tier - Great Daimyo
duke tier - Daimyo
count tier - Lord
baron tier - Samurai
But because the way caliphs and fylkirs work, if person holds caliphate or fylkirate, he will be always titled Caliph or Fylkir, instead of Badshah or King. Same will apply to Mikado, thus person who holds both k_yamato and e_japan, (like early Meji-like emperor who wrestled power from shogunate) will be titled as emperor, not shogun.
What do you think?
Real Japanese people, the Yamato, came to Japan circa 600 AD, and during Charlemagne star-date Japanese Emperor is still defacto ruler of Japan, but in later startdates, its all about shoguns.
Head of Shinto is The Japanese Emperor, the Tenno/Mikado. It could represented as landless king-tier feudal title, forced into agnatic seniority succession law, and unable to assimilate dejure duchies. That means he could be vassal, like Caliph or Pope. There could probably be agnatic inheritable trait (like sayyid is), "son of Amaterasu", that gives free piety/prestige.
There will be mechanic to prevent this title (k_yamato) from drifting from Yamato dynasty through succession wars or pretender factions. (a lot of NOT = { title = k_yamato } exceptions...)
Japan itself will represented by e_japan title, and if held by member of Yamato dynasty, will also be forced into agnatic seniority, I'll explain why.
Emperorship of Japan was not passed through primogeniture (not until Meji emperor), but by rotation, and the closest accurate representation will be agnatic seniority, not completely accurate, since it will prohibit historical female empresses, but allow sons by matrilinear marriages (who were not allowed!). Shogun and Daimyo, on the other hand, will be allowed all feudal succession laws.
For the length of Heian period, until around ~1200, japanese emperor (k_yamato) was nominal leader of Japan (although there should be superduke vassals of Fujiwara dynasty), and after that date was replaced by shogun, who became defacto monarch of japan. This is similar to Abbasid caliphs, who were at first sovereign rulers, only to be forced to became defacto vassals of various dynasties like Seljuks or Mamluks.
After ~1200, emperors of Japan will no longer be independent rulers, but vassals of shogunate (e_japan).
That transfer of power, could be represented by special faction, called "endorse shogunate" (allowed only if already at lowest crown authourty). If emperor caves in to the demands (or loses faction war. he will be forced to accept if under regency), he will create and grant shogunate (e_japan) to faction leader, and become its vassal.
All direct vassals of emperor woh did not support your faction will get weak claims on e_japan, to represent that they will try to contest it.
If japanese emperor already created e_japan, "endorse shogunate" faction will be disabled, and shogun wannabes will need to wage normal claim wars to get their hands on e_japan. If emperor gets his hand back on shogunate (e_japan), shogunate will effectively end, and imperial power will be restored.
If you are independent japanese-cultured daimyo, you can't create "endorse shogunate" faction, so you could have alternate path: force emperor to become your tributary, get 2000 prestige, and you can enact decision: "emperor makes me shogun". This path will grant all independent (japanese-cultured) daimyo strong claims on shogunate, to represent that they will try to contest it. (if emperor is landless, you don't need to make him tributary, just control kyoto directly or by your vassal, and have 2000 prestige)
japanese culture localisation of rulers will be something like this:
(very placeholder-ish)
emperor tier - Taikun? Shogun?
king tier - Great Daimyo
duke tier - Daimyo
count tier - Lord
baron tier - Samurai
But because the way caliphs and fylkirs work, if person holds caliphate or fylkirate, he will be always titled Caliph or Fylkir, instead of Badshah or King. Same will apply to Mikado, thus person who holds both k_yamato and e_japan, (like early Meji-like emperor who wrestled power from shogunate) will be titled as emperor, not shogun.
What do you think?
Your proposal looks interesting, I hope that mod creators will make Japan an interesting place to play as. However I've to point out one historical mistake:
Wrong. Around 600 AD Yamato state consolidated power in central Honshu and through following decades continued subjugating other polities. However people who were later started calling themselves Yamato were present on the islands since the beginning of Yayoi period.
I'm thinking there should be a system similar to the decadence system of Muslims working against the Chinese religious group (Top liege only).
Kind of reflects the bouts of peasant rebellions that destabilized the realm during times of famine and ill rule, and gives way for the eventual collapse of Tang assuming 769 start.
Plus it's a good way of weakening an otherwise absolutely overpowered empire gameplay wise.
I'm assuming China will be like Byzantium in that it starts with Imperial Administration and duchy viceroyalties?
Also, what are the plans regarding Chinese concubinage?
Kind of reflects the bouts of peasant rebellions that destabilized the realm during times of famine and ill rule, and gives way for the eventual collapse of Tang assuming 769 start.
Plus it's a good way of weakening an otherwise absolutely overpowered empire gameplay wise.
I'm assuming China will be like Byzantium in that it starts with Imperial Administration and duchy viceroyalties?
Also, what are the plans regarding Chinese concubinage?
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After getting the development of this mod underway (again), I thought some of the suggestions warranted a reply.
In regareds to adoption, players can take full advantage of it by adopting heirs to titles thus expanding the realm rapidly (limitations can be placed of course) and also aesthetics of family trees being cocked up. Yeah, the way autocephaly is limited sucks hard and no, there is no way to apply it without making major overhaul.
Ainu will be a pagan religion like any other as it is with the Ryukyuan religion. It won't be associated with the mainline Shinto religion, but at the very least, the culture will be of the same group (though that doesn't stop the AI from being dicks).
I'll have to look into it and ask After the End modders on how they did it.
A lot of the suggestions you've made have already been implemented since I took over. Though it is not possible to make the religious head landless without making them a theocracy. In regards to the Shogunate, we'll have to wait for the release so that you may judge. For localisation, I have made them a direct translation:
Emperor: Kotei (feudal), Taikun (viceroy - due to events)
King: O (feudal), Shogun (viceroy)
Duke: Daimyo (feudal), Chiji (viceroy)
Count: Shugo (feudal)
Baron: Jito (feudal)
As of Horse Lords, this is now possible and as such, Chinese religious groups now get decadence.
Yes.
Hmm... At the moment, it is standard like any other religion/government that allows concubinage, but if possible, I would like it to reflect how it ought to be without destroying the game balance too much.
In regareds to adoption, players can take full advantage of it by adopting heirs to titles thus expanding the realm rapidly (limitations can be placed of course) and also aesthetics of family trees being cocked up. Yeah, the way autocephaly is limited sucks hard and no, there is no way to apply it without making major overhaul.
Ainu will be a pagan religion like any other as it is with the Ryukyuan religion. It won't be associated with the mainline Shinto religion, but at the very least, the culture will be of the same group (though that doesn't stop the AI from being dicks).
I'll have to look into it and ask After the End modders on how they did it.
A lot of the suggestions you've made have already been implemented since I took over. Though it is not possible to make the religious head landless without making them a theocracy. In regards to the Shogunate, we'll have to wait for the release so that you may judge. For localisation, I have made them a direct translation:
Emperor: Kotei (feudal), Taikun (viceroy - due to events)
King: O (feudal), Shogun (viceroy)
Duke: Daimyo (feudal), Chiji (viceroy)
Count: Shugo (feudal)
Baron: Jito (feudal)
As of Horse Lords, this is now possible and as such, Chinese religious groups now get decadence.
Yes.
Hmm... At the moment, it is standard like any other religion/government that allows concubinage, but if possible, I would like it to reflect how it ought to be without destroying the game balance too much.
Yes it is.
Try to use something like this in potentials for feudal and theocratic government types.
Code:
# feudals
potential = {
NAND = {
controls_religion = yes
NOT = { religion_group = muslim }
NOT = { religion = norse_pagan_reformed }
NOT = { religion = shinto }
}
NOT = { religion_group = muslim }
is_patrician = no
}
# theocracies
potential = {
NOT = { religion_group = muslim }
NAND = {
controls_religion = yes
OR = {
religion = norse_pagan_reformed
religion = shinto
}
}
is_patrician = no
}Thanks for this, my reasoning was based off pre-Horse Lords experience where landless heads of religions were automatically a theocracy.
Maybe for the next update could you divide the "korean empire" which has the same territories as the "korean empire" into the three historical kingdoms of korea (Goguryeo, Baekje, Silla) which lasted from the first to the 7th century and then were revived in tthe early 10th century?
Three kingdoms of korea (1st century-668)
Later three kingdoms of korea (892- 932)
Three kingdoms of korea (1st century-668)
Later three kingdoms of korea (892- 932)
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Goguryeo (高句麗) and Goryeo (高麗) is the same name. Goguryeo was renamed to Goryeo during the reign of King Jiangsu (if I recall correctly) and those two terms were used interchangeably. Not to mention that Goryeo we have in 1066 is just renamed Later Goguryeo (後高句麗). However having Baekje (百濟) and Silla (新羅) as de-jure in 1066 makes sense. There were Silla restorationist movements (rebellions to restore Silla) even in 13th century, the last one that I know of started not long before Mongol Invasions. Likewise Jeolla region was very rebellious and a resurgent Baekje is not unthinkable.Maybe for the next update could you divide the "korean empire" which has the same territories as the "korean empire" into the three historical kingdoms of korea (Goguryeo, Baekje, Silla) which lasted from the first to the 7th century and then were revived in tthe early 10th century?
Three kingdoms of korea (1st century-668)
Later three kingdoms of korea (892- 932)
By the way, I could offer some help with the current setup of Korea. I'm normally part of the M&T team, but I could use a change of setting,
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If you want Song to fall, it should be making the (semi-)nomads stronger in relation to Song instead of destabilizing China; Song dynasty is the only major dynasty to fall to invasion, and twice even. After some Wiki searches, all but two named Song rebel were before 1066, the other two were Song Jiang and Fang La. The former was active between Shandong and Jiangsu, north of the Yangtze, and was made famous by the novel Water Margin, but was only only mentioned once in the record part of the History of Song, and a few more as part of others' biographies. The latter is way more prominent, and was mentioned in the entries of 10 out of 11 months of his activity. He's a heresiarch from Anhui, the name of his cult was not recorded first hand, but is popularly believed to be Manichean. As such, I don't believe there is a basis nor necessity to make southern China have a different culture in 1066 and during Northern Song Dynasty.
Song's most significant weakness was that regional military commanders were systematically undermined so that they have no chance of rebellion, and as such often lack authority and power to fight efficiently on their own, so in game terms, perhaps you can make it so that Song vassals have much less levies (and perhaps garrisons) than usual, and force the emperor to rely on personal troops. And when eventually a militarily inept emperor takes the throne, Song would become a fat, juicy target for invaders, just like what happened under Huizong.
Um, you kind of have it backwards, that argument is used to justify people speaking different languages lumped together in a single culture/culture group. On the other hand, if two people share a common origin, live together in the same country, and speaks the same language, why should they have different cultures? Why should they have penalties interacting with each other? You can have Chinese diverge later, with an event like the Norse one, so if the date is, say 1000, and a kingdom of China is not held by a Han Emperor of China, then the culture switches to the local one.
If you want Song to fall, it should be making the (semi-)nomads stronger in relation to Song instead of destabilizing China; Song dynasty is the only major dynasty to fall to invasion, and twice even. After some Wiki searches, all but two named Song rebel were before 1066, the other two were Song Jiang and Fang La. The former was active between Shandong and Jiangsu, north of the Yangtze, and was made famous by the novel Water Margin, but was only only mentioned once in the record part of the History of Song, and a few more as part of others' biographies. The latter is way more prominent, and was mentioned in the entries of 10 out of 11 months of his activity. He's a heresiarch from Anhui, the name of his cult was not recorded first hand, but is popularly believed to be Manichean. As such, I don't believe there is a basis nor necessity to make southern China have a different culture in 1066 and during Northern Song Dynasty.
Song's most significant weakness was that regional military commanders were systematically undermined so that they have no chance of rebellion, and as such often lack authority and power to fight efficiently on their own, so in game terms, perhaps you can make it so that Song vassals have much less levies (and perhaps garrisons) than usual, and force the emperor to rely on personal troops. And when eventually a militarily inept emperor takes the throne, Song would become a fat, juicy target for invaders, just like what happened under Huizong.
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About culture setup of Korea. Currently in the mod Korean culture is all over the modern Korea which is wrong. First of, the Hamgyong province outside Goryeo shouldn't be Korean at all, but Jurchen. After Balhae fell all Koreanic remnants of Goguryeo migrated to Goryeo and those which remained become later assimilated. However, if you want to portray the remnant population of Balhae (which kept revolting through Liao dynasty and remained being mentioned until Yuan), you could create a new Bohai culture. Though not in Hamgyong, but in Jilin and Liaodong. Maybe it could even become a melting pot culture? Though frankly it shouldn't appear until after fall of Balhae. It's important to note that people of Bohai/Balhae formed a major part of administration in Liao and Jin dynasty and were called specifically in Chinese chronicles as people of Balhae (渤海人).
Moving south, I don't think there's much of a need to split up Korean population into cultures as Umbra Spherae did. Though I'm not really aware how revolts work. @LumberKing since I'm not really that well versed in CK2 mechanics, what would be the best way to keep Jeolla region rebellious? Likewise with Gyeongsang, which was a Silla heartland and still controlled by nobles of the former Silla kingdom.
Finally, there's the case of Jeju. A distinct culture being there is ok, they formed their own kingdom and lived in mostlyban isolation from the mainland and Japan. However, the name was supposedly invented only in 13th century. Maybe a case could be made to rename the culture to Tamna?
Oh, and please fix the capital. Gaeseong was the capital of Goryeo (Kaesong is an older romanization and not in sync with other province names) for the most part (after the first Mongol invasion capital was moved to Ganghwa island, but returned to Gaeseong after Koreans finally surrendered).
EDIT: Also I'm sorry to say it, considering that you recently revamped the map of Korea, but the region has several smaller and bigger errors. Apart from the capital issue, we have both Hanseong and Hanyang (two names of the very same city). Also the Korean border extends behind Yalu river which simply didn't happen even though Koreans fought over it for centuries.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/강동6주.png
In this map you can see where Goryeo-Liao border lied at the beginning of 11th century. Green area was annexed by Goryeo.
There are also several issue with province names.
Moving south, I don't think there's much of a need to split up Korean population into cultures as Umbra Spherae did. Though I'm not really aware how revolts work. @LumberKing since I'm not really that well versed in CK2 mechanics, what would be the best way to keep Jeolla region rebellious? Likewise with Gyeongsang, which was a Silla heartland and still controlled by nobles of the former Silla kingdom.
Finally, there's the case of Jeju. A distinct culture being there is ok, they formed their own kingdom and lived in mostlyban isolation from the mainland and Japan. However, the name was supposedly invented only in 13th century. Maybe a case could be made to rename the culture to Tamna?
Oh, and please fix the capital. Gaeseong was the capital of Goryeo (Kaesong is an older romanization and not in sync with other province names) for the most part (after the first Mongol invasion capital was moved to Ganghwa island, but returned to Gaeseong after Koreans finally surrendered).
EDIT: Also I'm sorry to say it, considering that you recently revamped the map of Korea, but the region has several smaller and bigger errors. Apart from the capital issue, we have both Hanseong and Hanyang (two names of the very same city). Also the Korean border extends behind Yalu river which simply didn't happen even though Koreans fought over it for centuries.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/강동6주.png
In this map you can see where Goryeo-Liao border lied at the beginning of 11th century. Green area was annexed by Goryeo.
There are also several issue with province names.
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