Suggestions regarding Valencia for upcoming patch 1.28

[Le_Moustaché]

As we know, the next patch will add the kingdom of Valencia in the game. For that reason I want to make a few suggestions to the Paradox Developers for its ideas, events, goods, etc. so it doesn’t come to be a copy of Aragon or Catalonia, as Valencia has its own unique history in the period Europa Universalis IV covers.

IDEAS

Traditions:

-20% Galley Cost

+10% Garrison Recovery

Ideas:

1 Legacy of the Cid: +5% discipline

Centuries ago the Cid conquered Valencia and its neighbour lands, defeating the muslims who tried to recover the city, even if it ultimately failed when he died. Now that Valencian lands are Christian again, we must reclaim his memory to encourage our troops in the battle.

2 Golden age of Valencian art: +0’5 prestige per year

XV and XVI centuries marked the peak of art in Valencia: famous writers, as Joanot Martorell and Ausiàs March, and painters, as José de Ribera, were born. Also, Valencia became one of the first places in Europe where Renaissance was adopted. If we support these new artists and forms of art, we will be viewed with respect by our neighbours.

3 Homeland of the Borgia: +1 Diplomatic Reputation

The Borja family (Italianised as Borgia), of humble origins, has become one of the most famous families in Europe thanks to the links they have with Rome and the Spanish king. If we can put them in our favour, they will facilitate the closing of many profitable treaties for Valencia.

4 Fortify our Lands!: +10% Fort Defence

Since Ancient times our enemies have seen with greed our rich country. Be it Hannibal, Muslims, el Cid, Castilians or Berber pirates, they all wanted the same: to conquer or plunder our lands. If we want to protect ourselves, we have to repair and improve our medieval castles and build new fortress in the coasts, so our enemies think it twice before attacking us!

5 Integrate the Moriscos: -20% Stability Cost

We are a Christian kingdom and Christian are our cities, but our rural population are Moriscos, former descendant of Muslims, now Christianised too… or that’s what they say to our priests. We must be sure they adapt to our customs and pay their due obedience to the Catholic Church to avoid any fifth columns between our people.

6 Genovese merchants: +15% Global Trade Power

The Genovese have been interested in our riches since long ago and they have installed in our most important cities and harbours. Let’s encourage this settlements so we take advantage of their contacts around Europe.

7 Increase our food production: -10% development cost

Almost all our lands are hilly and mountainous, so our countryside can’t produce enough food for our growing population. We must drain the marshes and improve our irrigation fields so we don’t depend of Sicilian grain anymore to keep off starvation.

Ambition:

+10% Institution spread

EVENTS

It could be added a few events regarding the arrival to the Papal throne of the Borgias Callixtus III and Alexander VI, which could maybe add some papal influence (let it be 5/10) or improve the relationship with the Papal States (+50) to whoever controls the province of Xàtiva in the years 1455 and 1492, respectively (with a MTTH of 12 months).

Also, it could be added one event regarding the Revolt of the Germanies (literally Brotherhoods in Valencian), when artisan guilds and peasantry rebelled against the emperor Charles V and nobility when they tried to revoke their privilege of having weapons to defend themselves against the Berber pirates. The burghers tried to create a republic in an Italianised style, but they failed as they couldn’t made an united front and control the peasants, who began to kill and forcibly baptize Muslims. That could be represented in an event in which you have to choose between:

- Let’s be faithful to the king: causes 5 unrest for 3 years in all Valencia area and spawn 6 peasant rebels in Valencia province.

- Long live the Republic!: becomes an oligarchic republic, causes 7 unrest in all Valencia area for 3 years and spawns 8 noble rebels in Valencia province.

If you’re not playing with Kingdom of Valencia (be it Castile, Aragon or any Christian country who conquers the province of Valencia) the event should consist in +5 unrest in Valencia area and spawn 8 peasant rebels in Valencia province.

The event should spawn in 1519 with a MTTH of 48 months.

Finally, it can be added the expulsion of the Moriscos. You could choose between:

- Expulse them and repopulate the land with true Christians: giving you +10 prestige and 0’5 years income immediately and -33% development cost for 25 years, but also reducing by one third the development of the provinces of Valencia, Xàtiva and Alicante (Castellon was not as populated with Moriscos as the rest) immediately and a +50% Stability increase cost for 25 years.

- Let them live in peace: causes -25 prestige immediately and 7 unrest and -2 tolerance to true faith for 25 years.


GOODS

If I remember well, the goods nowadays are Paper for Valencia and Wine for Alicante. As the provinces of Xàtiva and Castellón are going to be added, I recommend to be it like this:

- Castellon: Fish. Castellon had a lot of ceramics industry, but as this good is not represented in the game, we can add this one, as fishing is also important in the province (even nowadays).

- Valencia: Wine, Silk, Cloth or Grain. Wine is cultivated in the hilly interior and south of Valencia since ancient times along with olives. Silk was an important resource of Valencian economy, especially during the XVIII century, before they were disbanded by Lyonese low prices and a disease killed all mulberries in the XIX century, replacing them with the famous oranges. Cloth is because Valencia is an important regional producer until nowadays (if not, look at the Fallas indumentary). Finally, Grain is because Valencia had an important production of Rice in the Júcar river mouth and Albufera, especially at XVIII century.

- Xàtiva: Paper, Silk or Sugar. Paper was an important good made in the city of Xàtiva until XX century. Silk was also as important there and the neighbour area, but hadn’t the importance of paper. Finally, Sugar was cultivated near Gandia, being one of the most important incomes of the Borja family in the XVI century.

- Alicante: Wine. I don’t see any special reason to change this, as wine is cultivated all around the province.

PROVINCE TERRAIN

Castellón: Mountains. Castellon is very mountainous, especially in the interior.
Valencia: Drylands/Farmlands. As a mediterranean land, the Valencian lands are not specially full of farms, so it should be drylands, but the region near Valencia and the Albufera are full of rice fields and the zones near the principal rivers are pretty cultivated too.
Xàtiva: Drylands/Hills. The region of Xativa is not as cultivated as the north, remaining pretty dry in comparition and its also pretty hilly.
Alicante: Mountains. Both the north and interior of the province of Alicante are pretty mountainous, so i would let it be like this.


VISUAL CHANGES

As a final suggestion, I would modify the form of the provinces so they have a form like in this image:

I think that's all. If you had something to add or to discuss, be free to say it!
PD: Sorry for my english, is not my native language

 

[neondt]

Some good ideas here. Will certainly use this for inspiration if I get time to implement Valencian national ideas

 

[Le_Moustaché]

Many thanks @neondt for keeping it in mind. If i have time, I will gladly suggest anything regarding the Iberian kingdoms or even expand more about Valencia.

 

[cristofolmc]

Some good ideas here. Will certainly use this for inspiration if I get time to implement Valencian national ideas

As a Valencian myself and valencian history buff, I have a mod that implements the Kingdom of Valencia, with its own ideas, some of which are from aragon, which should be reworked because some of them belonged to Valencia (the trade related ones for instance). I have also many sources I can share about the kingdom of valencia, and its economy, society, political institutions, etc. If you are willing to look through them (I dont wanna work for nothing), feel fre to DM me and I can gladly share it. All for the sake of my region (kindgom) better portrayal

 

[cristofolmc]

1 Pacify the nobles: +0’5 army tradition per year

Our nobility have been fighting each other for too many years. Even if in recent times they have been calmer, we can’t risk to have another chaotic civil war like in the first half of XV century. We can redirect their energies in commanding our armies, making them more useful than they are now.

What rebelion in the XV century? :S

+1 Papal Influence

Why?

5 Integrate the Moriscos: -1 unrest

The moriscos were in fact kicked out, but oh well I suppose for half of the game they were integrated, yes. But I think this is the one that should give the development cost since they were the major source of country labour for the nobility (one of the reasons for la guerra de las germanías (@neondt look up the war of the germanias. It was at the time of the Guerra de las Comunidades in Castille. A huge big event of importance for Valencia Kingdom). But instead you forget one of the most obvious ideas. Cortes which should give the -1 unrest. Unless cortes is a feature, which it should, it should at least be represented in the ideas

4 Fortify our Lands!: +25% Fort Defence

We dont have particularly impressive castles but okay, I suppose this one is justified

6 Genovese merchants: +15% trade steering

The genovese didn't want our riches. We just traded with them and they with us. This idea should reflect the massive importance of Valencia and its traders as a trading citiy in the mediterranean in the XV-XVI century, competing with Genoa and Venice. It should talk about genoese traders. (Also I think it should get a trade power bonuse, trade steerin does nothing for valencia, so you might as well not add anything. I also think that given the importance of trade in valencia in this period, it should get another trade idea, maybe in traditions or the finisher bonus, but somewhere).

- Castellon: Fish. Castellon had a lot of ceramics industry, but as this good is not represented in the game, we can add this one, as fishing is also important in the province (even nowadays).

Have you ever been in Castellón? Castellón it doesnt produce fish. It produces fruit. Castellón is a huge big orange tree field. And as fruit is portrayed by wine, thats what it should produce).

 

[pauletx]

In my oppinion, probably is better to put more trade ideas. Traditionally Valencia was an important trading city, so putting more trade ideas would represent Valencia better than just simply putting a mere 15% trade steering. It could be a potential alternative to Genoa or Venetia.

 

[cristofolmc]

In my oppinion, probably is better to put more trade ideas. Traditionally Valencia was an important trading city, so putting more trade ideas would represent Valencia better than just simply putting a mere 15% trade steering. It could be a potential alternative to Genoa or Venetia.

A game playing with Valencia as a trading republic competing with Genoa and Venice is gonna be fun.

Valencia should get some naval idea. To either represent trade protecion or coast protection against berber pirates. There are records of Cortes approving the building of gallies (funded by the Cortes) to protect the coast against the pirates.

 

[Le_Moustaché]

@cristofolmc Some of the reasonings you said maybe are true, so I'll try to answer them all:

1. The noble rebelion I mention to happen in the XV century was the conflict between the families of the Centelles and the Vilaragut, in the context of the Interregnum of the Crown of Aragon between the reigns of Martin the Humane of Barcelona and Ferdinand I of Trastamara. The Centelles and their allies supported Jaume of Urgell, considered by ones to be the legitimate succesor of Martin, while the Vilaragut and their allies supported Ferdinand, who used his greater wealth and influence to impose himself as the new king of the Crown of Aragon in the Compromise of Caspe (1412). The dinastic conflict and the quarrels between families plunged the region of Valencia in chaos, as murders and skirmishes were in the order of the day until san Vicent Ferrer could put them in peace and the Trastamara dinasty consolidated the aragonese crown after taking prisoner Jaume of Urgell.
2. I put the Papal Influence as a manner to represent the power which have the Catholic Church in these lands and the influence the Borjas had. I accept this one maybe is a bit random or not enough self-explainatory, so maybe it should changed by the gallies reduced cost you mentioned.
3. The idea means the moriscos were never fully integrated into the rest of population, as most of them practiced a form of criptoislamism or lived in his own way, causing suspicion on his christian neighbours (and that's the reason of the persecutions and forced baptims during the Germanies). The main idea here is that, by fully integrating the moriscos with the rest of population, Valencia can be internally more secure. This maybe can be changed granting a reduction in stability cost instead of the unrest.
4. If I didn't included the Cortes of Valencia is because I felt they hadn't the historical importance they had in Aragon or Catalonia (or that is what was suggested in the Degree of History in the History Faculty of Valencia, where I studied). I dont mean with this they are not important for the Valencia history, just not important for the game. Of course, this can be debatable.
5. Maybe our castles aren't as impressive like in other places, but they are still there and served for its purpose (look only the most famous of Xativa or Sagunto). And i dont mean only the castles itselves, but the fortifications the coastal towns and cities build to protect themselves from the sacks from pirates of North Africa (only in the province of Alicante you have Alicante itself, Benidorm, Villajoyosa, Orihuela, Santa Pola, etc.)
6. Evidently, Genovese didn't want our riches itselves, as we didnt had any specially interesant (if we had, they would had invaded us ), but the riches we and they produced by trading. But saying Valencia was of MASSIVE importance maybe is a bit superlative. Of course, Valencia was one of the most important ports in the Mediterranean in the 1430-1530 time, and possibly one of the most populated cities in Spain, if not the most (maybe was surpased by Toledo or Granada, but I'm not clear). Even so, I think i cannot approve to say we could compete, in terms of power, with Genova and less with Venice. It can be cool to try to do it in the game, but not in actual history. Of course, this idea can be changed if it doesn't feel to be justified.
7. Oranges maybe are important now, but most of them were started to be cultivated in the XIX century, when the mulberries died by a disease. If you can demostrate the opposite, and they were cultivated in the Modern Ages too, I will retract and give you the reason there.

 

[cristofolmc]

Oranges maybe are important now, but most of them were started to cultivate in the XIX century, when the mulberries died by a disease. If you can demostrate the opposite, and they were cultivated in the Modern Ages too, I will retract and give you the reason there.

Huh, how about that? I didnt know that, thanks. Then yes, I suppose fish would make sense. So according to you, Alicante did actually produce wine? Just curiosity.

The noble rebelion I mention to happen in the XV century was the conflict between the families of the Centelles and the Vilaragut, in the context of the Interregnum of the Crown of Aragon between the reigns of Martin the Humane of Barcelona and Ferdinand I of Trastamara. The Centelles and their allies supported Jaume of Urgell, considered by ones to be the legitimate succesor of Martin, while the Vilaragut and their allies supported Ferdinand, who used his greater wealth and influence to impose himself as the new king of the Crown of Aragon in the Compromise of Caspe (1412). The dinastic conflict and the quarrels between families plunged the region of Valencia in chaos, as murders and skirmishes were in the order of the day until san Vicent Ferrer could put them in peace and the Trastamara dinasty consolidated the aragonese crown after taking prisoner Jaume of Urgell

Oh you were refering to the Compromise of Caspe. Thats more of an Aragonese Crown thing. I dont know it warrants its own idea for valencia depicting quarreling nobility, which wasnt really the case in general (unlike in catalonia) to deserve such an idea

I put the Papal Influence as a manner to represent the power which have the Catholic Church in these lands and the influence the Borjas had. I accept this one maybe is a bit random or not enough self-explainatory, so maybe it should changed by the gallies reduced cost you mentioned.

Yes I thought so, but since you already depicted the borjias in another idea...yes, I think a naval galley bonuse would be more fitting here.

The idea means the moriscos were never fully integrated into the rest of population, as most of them practiced a form of criptoislamism or lived in his own way, causing suspicion on his christian neighbours (and that's the reason of the persecutions and forced baptims during the Germanies). The main idea here is that, by fully integrating the moriscos with the rest of population, Valencia can be internally more secure. This maybe can be changed granting a reduction in stability cost instead of the unrest.

Wasnt the germanias war conflict a conflict between the city guilds artisians and the nobility over the labour reduction costs that the muslims working the fields for the community brought? Thats' what ive read from several sources. And thats why they wanted to become an independent republic or at least be the guilds and burghers the ones to rule and have full authority over valencia matters.

If I didn't included the Cortes of Valencia is because I felt they hadn't the historical importance they had in Aragon or Catalonia (or that is what was suggested in the Degree of History in the History Faculty of Valencia, where I studied). I dont mean with this they are not important for the Valencia history, just not important for the game. Of course, this can be debatable.

I completely disagree. Yes, compared to the catalonia's cortes, they fall into decay during the 17th century, and during the 16th werent as influential as in the 15th given the centralization efforts of the catholic kings and successors and the disagreements amongst our estates, unable to make a common front and have the Generalidad to acts as a kingdom unitary power like they managed in catalonia. But that doesnt mean cortes werent of most importance at game start. After all, they did have their own Generalidad. Just as they did in Aragon and Catalonia.

Maybe our castles aren't as impressive like in other places, but they are still there and served for its purpose (look only the most famous of Xativa or Sagunto). And i dont mean only the castles itselves, but the fortifications the coastal towns and cities build to protect themselves from the sacks from pirates of North Africa (only in the province of Alicante you have Alicante itself, Benidorm, Villajoyosa, Orihuela, Santa Pola, etc.)

Yes and this is why didnt disagree with the idea. Its just that we have as many castles as many other countries that had even more but dont have that sweet +25% bonuse. I dont know, I'd still like another trade or economic idea here. Or maybe a militry one? Like Tercio de Valencia? xd

Evidently, Genovese didn't want our riches itselves, as we didnt had any specially interesant (if we had, they would had invaded us ), but the riches we and they produced by trading. But saying Valencia was of MASSIVE importance maybe is a bit superlative. Of course, Valencia was one of the most important ports in the Mediterranean in the 1430-1530 time, and possibly one of the most populated cities in Spain, if not the most (maybe was surpased by Toledo or Granada, but I'm not clear). Even so, I think i cannot approve to say we could compete, in terms of power, with Genova and less with Venice. It can be cool to try to do it in the game, but not in actual history. Of course, this idea can be changed if it doesn't feel to be justified.

you're right, I might have overstretched. I just didn't like your idea description taking away credit from our merchants as if we didnt have any and it was just genovese coming to buy stuff, when our traders did as much trading as anyone and even more as a big important mediterranean city during that century

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Naranjito]

Add more ideas or commercial traditions, the developers see Catalonia and Valencia as commercial.

And also you would have to put something related to the sea, more moral to the galleys. Best commercial boats.

The Borgia for me is for an idea, not for an idea and tradition.

Please make someone from the Kingdom of Mallorca.

 

[Snake_Squeezins]

These are great and thoughtful ideas. I really like the idea of establishing Valencia as an upstart trade republic to counter the others in the Genoa node.

1) There absolutely needs to be an event tied to the Llotja de la Seda / Lonja de Seda:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llotja_de_la_Seda
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/782

Give it equivalent bonuses to commissioning a major palace. Maybe +300 Splendor, or an instant upgrade to a Level 3 Center of Trade in Valencia province. (Side note - seriously, there need to be more events giving bonus Splendor!)

2) If you want to simulate the ceramic trade in one province, just use Chinaware.

 

[neondt]

1) There absolutely needs to be an event tied to the Llotja de la Seda / Lonja de Seda.

There will definitely be a way for Valencia to produce silk, and a modifier representing the Llotja de la Seda.

 

[gigau]

to the Suggestions subforum.

 

[Le_Moustaché]

If you want to simulate the ceramic trade in one province, just use Chinaware.

I believe Chinaware is a bit too much You can't compare the fine chinese porcelain with some regional pottery of the Castellon of the XV-XVIII. It cannot be compared even with the renowned ceramics from Manises (which started about the XVIII century, BTW).

 

[Le_Moustaché]

So according to you, Alicante did actually produce wine? Just curiosity.

I didn't said it, it's already in the game.

Oh you were refering to the Compromise of Caspe. Thats more of an Aragonese Crown thing. I dont know it warrants its own idea for valencia depicting quarreling nobility, which wasnt really the case in general (unlike in catalonia) to deserve such an idea

I referred to the confict between the factions of Centelles and Vilaragut, which happened in that time ONLY at VALENCIA. I emphasize this because, even if in Catalonia, Aragon and Majorca had their own problems (Catalonia had the Mals Usos peasentry problem, e. g.), this kind of Mafia style war between nobles was particularly severe in Valencia.

Wasnt the germanias war conflict a conflict between the city guilds artisians and the nobility over the labour reduction costs that the muslims working the fields for the community brought? Thats' what ive read from several sources.

True, that's one of the factors. The other is the one I mentioned about the weapons to defend themselves against the berber pirates.

I completely disagree. Yes, compared to the catalonia's cortes, they fall into decay during the 17th century, and during the 16th werent as influential as in the 15th given the centralization efforts of the catholic kings and successors and the disagreements amongst our estates, unable to make a common front and have the Generalidad to acts as a kingdom unitary power like they managed in catalonia. But that doesnt mean cortes werent of most importance at game start. After all, they did have their own Generalidad. Just as they did in Aragon and Catalonia.

As I said, that's a bit debatable. The Valencian Generalitat was indeed strong, but weaker than its counterparts of Aragon or Catalonia. In terms of Parlamentarism strenght: If England was a 100; Aragon then was a 80; Catalonia a 75; Valencia a 65 and Majorca maybe a 40.

Yes and this is why didnt disagree with the idea. Its just that we have as many castles as many other countries that had even more but dont have that sweet +25% bonuse. I dont know, I'd still like another trade or economic idea here. Or maybe a militry one? Like Tercio de Valencia? xd

Maybe 25% it's a bit strong. What about a 10%? And about the tercio idea... Valencia didn't had any particularly strenght in army or navy, so it should be something about cheaping the cost of ships, as was said.

 

[Le_Moustaché]

Please make someone from the Kingdom of Mallorca.

I can try, but I'm not as specialized in the Baleares as I am with Valencia. After all, in the university we focused in Valencia and Majorca was the ugly duck of the Crown of Aragon

 

[cristofolmc]

There will definitely be a way for Valencia to produce silk, and a modifier representing the Llotja de la Seda.

I hope then that the Consulado del Mar event and country modifier from aragon becomes a valencian one. Either if its part of the crown of aragon or an indepednent kingdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llotja_de_la_Seda

 

[Albert I]

6 Genovese merchants: +15% trade steering

The Genovese have been interested in our riches since long ago and they have installed in our most important cities and harbours. Let’s encourage this settlements so we take advantage of their contacts around Europe.

The genovese didn't want our riches. We just traded with them and they with us. This idea should reflect the massive importance of Valencia and its traders as a trading citiy in the mediterranean in the XV-XVI century, competing with Genoa and Venice. It should talk about genoese traders. (Also I think it should get a trade power bonuse, trade steerin does nothing for valencia, so you might as well not add anything. I also think that given the importance of trade in valencia in this period, it should get another trade idea, maybe in traditions or the finisher bonus, but somewhere). .

I always remember that it's Genova and Pisa, the great competence of the Crown of Aragon. And are the traders (From Valencia, Barcelona...) who impulse some wars against Genova.
Until the Trastamara and then, Charles V, think is the first, use Genova as the bank of the crown.
Then, if the the golden age of Valencia it's before the prevalence of the Genovese banks.
Maybe it's more suitable another name?

 

[korawit13]

@Le_Moustaché, I read a Wikipedia about the event that Valencia was the first kingdom to install a movable printing press. Do you think it should have the event which increases a chance of printing press institution appear at Valencia?


Below sentence, sorry scaried you because I am too sad, disappoint, and angry at the same; when I have to push a company to improve its customer relationship. It is the main tenet of successful business.

Unrelated question, do you think that Paradox Interactive should say thank you for us ? At least staffs or administion should just acknowledge that they are here by say hello. At least they can just pretend they care about us here because many of other forums, the moderators and administrator say hello to the members regularly.
Many people here do research the company for free. People here could used their time do something else with better cost-benfit analysis.

 

[Le_Moustaché]

I always remember that it's Genova and Pisa, the great competence of the Crown of Aragon. And are the traders (From Valencia, Barcelona...) who impulse some wars against Genova.

That's half true. Effectively, the merchants from Barcelona (primarily) and Valencia and Majorca (secondarily) impulsed wars against Genoa and Pisa because in that way they could occupy their place in the West Mediterranean trade. In fact, this was one of the causes of the conquer of Sardinia in the first years of the XIV century (the other one to compensate the loss of Sicily with other big island )

Until the Trastamara and then, Charles V, think is the first, use Genova as the bank of the crown.

In the idea I didnt mean the influence of the Genovense in the Spanish finances, which, as you said, started to rose with Charles I and reached it's peak with Philip IV. What I meant was that many genovese settled in Valencian capital and lands and it was one of the oldest and longest-lived areas of genovese commercial influence. When Genoa lost all of its "colonies" and was in a clear decadence, Valencia remained one of the zones where they still traded. This influence still remains in our days, with many of our citizens being descendents of genovese settlers (Santa Pola, e.g., if I remember well, was founded in the XVIII with genovese refugees and one of my friends discovered not long ago he descends from a genovese, after some genealogical research)

Then, if the the golden age of Valencia it's before the prevalence of the Genovese banks.
Maybe it's more suitable another name?

The Golden Age of Valencia covers many fields, not only the economic: as I said, it was one of the most populated and cosmopolite cities in Mediterranean; the court of Maria of Castile, the wife of Alfonso V, implanted here was one of the finest in Europe, maybe only below that of her husband in Naples and the Medici in Firenze; there were numerous artists in this era: Lluis Dalmau, Ausias March, Joanot Martorell, Jaume Roig, Isabel of Villena...