Suggestions of a Byzantine mindset

[constantinople!]

New item:

60. I hear new succession laws will be implemented. Please include 'Agnatic Seniority'. According to wikipedia: "Agnatic seniority is a patrilineal principle of inheritance where the order of succession to the throne prefers the monarch's younger brother over the monarch's own sons. A monarch's children (the next generation) succeed only after the males of the elder generation have all been exhausted. Agnatic seniority essentially excludes females of the dynasty and their descendants from the succession. Contrast agnatic primogeniture, where the king's sons stand higher in succession than his brothers." It is still used today in Saudi Arabia and greatly diminishes the posibility of underage heirs. Since we use to marry our Kings when 16-years-old with 16-year-old brides and they breed heirs like rabbits, it would be interesting to see a succession going through the King's many brothers.

 

[RedRooster81]

It's an interesting idea, but I think the devs have already set the succession laws (see the DD thread on succession). I would like for there to be a decision ("Designate Heir") that would allow you to name your own heir, with adoption perhaps in the old Roman tradition. There should be cases in which this would apply, and it would also cover a variety of instances, for a wife to succeed her husband, as happened in Iberia for instance in El Cid's Valencia. Probably won't be possible, but still an interesting option to consider.

 

[unmerged(155641)]

Yes we need both adoption and the ability to choose which heir you want to succeed you, including bastards and adopted children.

 

[Nick B II]

IIRC the Devs said that if you want Appointive you have to use Feudal Elective law.

Under Elective law the King nominates an heir who gets to run for the crown against his vassal's nominees.

It doesn't work great for appointive realms, because the vassals could throw your family out entirely, which is not what actually hppened in appontive realms, but hey.

Nick

 

[RedRooster81]

Yes we need both adoption and the ability to choose which heir you want to succeed you, including bastards and adopted children.

It would sort of work already under elective law (which I guess would have a drop-down menu for the incumbent's choice of successor), but I would also like to be able to change someone's dynasty to my own, like adopting my stepson, my sister's son, or a very bright peasant boy who my spymaster is able to pass off as my only son who really died in a hunting accident... And correct me if I am wrong, constantinople, but this was how things worked in the Byzantine world, more than primogeniture?

 

[SorelusImperion]

I would like for there to be a decision ("Designate Heir") that would allow you to name your own heir, with adoption perhaps in the old Roman tradition.

It was coincidence rather than tradition. Neither of the so called "adoptive Emperors" had sons of their own and when Marcus Aurelius was the first one in a long time who had a surviving male child. And when he died he was (unsurprisingly) succeeded not by an appointed heir chosen amongst the most capable men of the Empire (or rather the most usefull political ally and drinking buddy of the Emperor) but by his own son who turned out to be ... "not so capable".

It doesn't work great for appointive realms, because the vassals could throw your family out entirely, which is not what actually hppened in appontive realms, but hey.

I'd tend to disagree. If your subjects don't agree with whomever you appoint as heir the new "ruler" might find himself without a realm pretty soon and indeed this was more often than not the cold hard reality faced by women, underage children, bastards, unpopular people and wannabe Sun Kings. I doubt that we'd find even a single political entiety in that which had formalized a system under which the current ruler simply appointed a new heir. So you want to appoint an heir ? Well than you'll have to take the risk that your vassalls don't agree with whomever you have appointed.

IIRC different realms also have different inheritance laws in CKII so while the title "King of blablabla" might be lost for the moment your designated heir might still rule over a number of personal territorys like the "Duchy of whatdoIcare" which you might even have given to him already before the monarchs dead. And if he is strong enough he can even try to win back the the kingdom and enforce the previous king's will.

 

[RedRooster81]

Right on about separate succession laws. Part of the balancing act will be keeping the magnates of each of your kingdoms and duchies happy and willing to accept your choice of heir. And it will take some planning to rig things the best possible way for your successor. So there is little support for Albrecht XIX to become Holy Roman Emperor, but he can still be Duke of Swabia et al. and King of Lotharingia under the empire. Maybe, for example.

 

[Nick B II]

I'd tend to disagree. If your subjects don't agree with whomever you appoint as heir the new "ruler" might find himself without a realm pretty soon and indeed this was more often than not the cold hard reality faced by women, underage children, bastards, unpopular people and wannabe Sun Kings. I doubt that we'd find even a single political entiety in that which had formalized a system under which the current ruler simply appointed a new heir. So you want to appoint an heir ? Well than you'll have to take the risk that your vassalls don't agree with whomever you have appointed.

IIRC different realms also have different inheritance laws in CKII so while the title "King of blablabla" might be lost for the moment your designated heir might still rule over a number of personal territorys like the "Duchy of whatdoIcare" which you might even have given to him already before the monarchs dead. And if he is strong enough he can even try to win back the the kingdom and enforce the previous king's will.

Here's a situation I was thinking of:

The King has two sons. The elder has good stats -- especially intrigue and stewardship -- the other is Mil 25/Diplo 10/Int and Stew 0. The first has some bad traits like coward, married a foreign heiress, and has no important friends. The second has a bunch of great traits, is friends with the top Duke, and married another Duke's dughter. The King picks the first guy because 0 Stew sucks ass.

If there's a conflict it should be between those two guys, with the younger getting lots of support from within the country and the elder depending on a) his superior administrative abilities and b) his father-in-law's aid.

Under no circumstances should a family totally unrealted to the last King take over. But under feudal elective it's entirely possible the top Duke would nominate himself for the crown, not his friend the Prince...

I won't know how big a problem this is until I can see the system in action. But it has the potential to be terrible, with random person after random person getting elected.

Nick

 

[stantz]

hey thanks for posting that commentary video, I haven't seen that one yet.

 

[Don_giorgio]

How about co-Kings/co-Emperors? This was common in Byzantine Empire where the reigning Emperor had his (preferred) heir crowned as junior Emperor in order to secure the succession... And if i remember correctly Frankish or Anglo-Saxon Kings had the same pattern for a brief time...