Suggestions for Treaty of Tordesillas fix

[Chronicler]

I've noticed that this Treaty causes trouble just as in EU3 or earlier EUIV days.

If two competing nations are trying for a colonial nation or just colonizing an area. Let's say if I manage to get a colonial nation before AI Castile in a certain region, then AI Castile doesn't realize that it's getting negative effects and just keeps trying, which means that (early game at least) they have colonial provinces with negative settler growth (just as when tropical gave -25).

So to solve this maybe the AI should have some sort of programming that gives exceptions for provinces already started before Treaty of T came into effect? Or maybe the AI should abandon provinces with negative settler growth? Or some other solution?

 

[Ilightmaster]

I agree this need a fix, you should even post this in the bug section.

 

[Chronicler]

I agree this need a fix, you should even post this in the bug section.

Well, technically it isn't a bug. You have no idea how much I had to fight just for them to fix the whole thing with the AI getting stuck in tropical provinces for a long time.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, technically it isn't a bug. You have no idea how much I had to fight just for them to fix the whole thing with the AI getting stuck in tropical provinces for a long time.

ToT needs numerous fixes, including for legit bugs like Castile --> Spain causing Spain to violate the ToT because the land is "Castile's" or Catholic natives in their own region being ineligible for ToT essentially making a Catholic new world nation non-viable for no good reason.

At the very least, you shouldn't be penalized for violating your own claims.

 

[Chronicler]

ToT needs numerous fixes, including for legit bugs like Castile --> Spain causing Spain to violate the ToT because the land is "Castile's" or Catholic natives in their own region being ineligible for ToT essentially making a Catholic new world nation non-viable for no good reason.

At the very least, you shouldn't be penalized for violating your own claims.

Hmm, what version are you playing? I have never had the violate ToT thing when playing as Castile-Spain in any of my games at least?

Also historically spealing the ToT was a treaty between Spain and Portugal. I don't see how historically catholic natives would have been able to use a European treaty like this anyhow....if we are realistic here.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmm, what version are you playing? I have never had the violate ToT thing when playing as Castile-Spain in any of my games at least?

Also historically spealing the ToT was a treaty between Spain and Portugal. I don't see how historically catholic natives would have been able to use a European treaty like this anyhow....if we are realistic here.

If the natives are 1) catholic and 2) become so prior to the formation of a CN in their region then one of two things should happen:

A) They can get the ToT for that region like anybody else or
B) They can avoid the penalty for ToT, since it's a "European" treaty after all.

The current setup of natives getting the penalty in their own region is atrocious. It makes Catholicism a false choice to no gameplay benefit and with no real historical precedent backing the penalty in their case (hell, the nations who signed the treaty played it fast and loose). The viability of Catholicism in the new world was flimsy enough with the European cardinals-only restriction...why heap on another demerit to make the choice braindead?

 

[Chronicler]

If the natives are 1) catholic and 2) become so prior to the formation of a CN in their region then one of two things should happen:

A) They can get the ToT for that region like anybody else or
B) They can avoid the penalty for ToT, since it's a "European" treaty after all.

The current setup of natives getting the penalty in their own region is atrocious. It makes Catholicism a false choice to no gameplay benefit and with no real historical precedent backing the penalty in their case (hell, the nations who signed the treaty played it fast and loose). The viability of Catholicism in the new world was flimsy enough with the European cardinals-only restriction...why heap on another demerit to make the choice braindead?

Well the European cardinals only restriction was a historical precedent....

I still think we have to back to the drawing table with the whole thing though, since historically as I said it was a treaty between Spain and Portugal that was pretty much ignored by other countries. Let's also remember that the treaty wasn't really as simple as the game makes it out to be either, Portugal and Spain basically divided the world between them.

Also I find the whole idea of natives being able to claim an entire region due to being Catholic somewhat strange, considering that they would have had some contact with Europe to even become Catholic. The idea that they could become Catholic, then contact the Pope and use an existing treaty to lay claim to a region surrounding them AND then the Catholic European nations would respect it sounds somewhat farfetched to me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well the European cardinals only restriction was a historical precedent....

I still think we have to back to the drawing table with the whole thing though, since historically as I said it was a treaty between Spain and Portugal that was pretty much ignored by other countries. Let's also remember that the treaty wasn't really as simple as the game makes it out to be either, Portugal and Spain basically divided the world between them.

Also I find the whole idea of natives being able to claim an entire region due to being Catholic somewhat strange, considering that they would have had some contact with Europe to even become Catholic. The idea that they could become Catholic, then contact the Pope and use an existing treaty to lay claim to a region surrounding them AND then the Catholic European nations would respect it sounds somewhat farfetched to me.

No more far-fetched than their own colonization being gimped because Catholicism. The way ToT works is to give it to the first nation that forms a CN that the pope likes + is Catholic. If there's no CN there and you have contact with the Pope, there's no rational way a formed CN there should be giving you penalties, Catholic or not. There's no historic precedent for this scenario whatsoever, so why choose something overtly bad for gameplay when deciding what happens? Personally I think the best solution is that nations straight up ignore ToT on home-continent.

 

[Chronicler]

No more far-fetched than their own colonization being gimped because Catholicism. The way ToT works is to give it to the first nation that forms a CN that the pope likes + is Catholic. If there's no CN there and you have contact with the Pope, there's no rational way a formed CN there should be giving you penalties, Catholic or not. There's no historic precedent for this scenario whatsoever, so why choose something overtly bad for gameplay when deciding what happens? Personally I think the best solution is that nations straight up ignore ToT on home-continent.

"No more far-fetched than their own colonization being gimped because Catholicism"

I was more referring to your solutions than commenting on the situtation. I don't see how native tribes could benefit from a European treaty dividing up native lands =P

Also I see the whole idea of them colonizing a bit farfetched also. The reason population was so low in Africa and other places was due to the fact that they lived off the land (meaning hunter-gatherer) and was in constant warfare with other tribes.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

"No more far-fetched than their own colonization being gimped because Catholicism"

I was more referring to your solutions than commenting on the situtation. I don't see how native tribes could benefit from a European treaty dividing up native lands =P

Also I see the whole idea of them colonizing a bit farfetched also. The reason population was so low in Africa and other places was due to the fact that they lived off the land (meaning hunter-gatherer) and was in constant warfare with other tribes.

Let's not get into what is or isn't far-fetched. If we accept westernization, the game's presentation of logistics, or coalitions then there's no way to rationally reject these nations colonizing, or penalizing them for doing so.

 

[Chronicler]

Let's not get into what is or isn't far-fetched. If we accept westernization, the game's presentation of logistics, or coalitions then there's no way to rationally reject these nations colonizing, or penalizing them for doing so.

Well, once again you are assuming that I accept these things =P

If you check my history you have found me making posts about nations westernizing far too quickly for example, especially nations that historically speaking never westernized, like certain African nations (that were never part of any empire until the scramble for Africa).

I am not sure how logistics could be better presented? But yes I do agree there should be more options. Coalitions have historical precedents no?