Suggestions for new Estuary and Important Center of Trade provinces.

[Demetrios]

Since I didn't play EU4 during the last few expansions before AOW, one of the more intriguing mechanics that I had missed was the implementation of trade bonuses in provinces that possess major river estuaries or were considered centers of trade during the period. Since I very much enjoy playing the trade/colonization side of the game, the addition of these has made my gameplay richer and more complex, and therefore more enjoyable. However, I do believe there are some further provinces that could definitely do with having these bonuses added. Although in some cases these may have been skipped over originally when the concept was first designed, the addition of so many provinces and the reorganization of trade regions in AoW also leaves room for expanding these bonuses further. So, after examining the map (and could the little symbol for these be moved in the cases of the California, Rio Grande, and Samarkand trade nodes - they are basically invisible on the map buried under the clutter from the nodes) and doing some research on the era, I've come up with a list of provinces (roughly from west to east) that could (or should) have one or the other bonus added.


CHINOOK - Estuary for the Columbia River. This is one of the more iffy ones (yeah, kind of bad to start off that way), as trade really didn't kick off here until the very end of the game period. However, that's not for lack of any intrinsic trade value, but simply because the region was so extremely remote for Europeans during the time period. Once trade started here, however, the mouth of the Columbia became very important for both the UK and the US. Also, the California trade region has only one other province with bonuses, so adding another would liven things up in the area (which is a point the region has in common with several others, as we shall see...)

TAMAROA - Important Center of Trade. The whole area where the Missouri and Illinois Rivers flow into the Mississippi have always been the center of trade for the region. There are good reasons why several of the largest Mound Builder settlements were in the area, and why the region was one of the earliest to be taken over by the French. Tamaroa is where St Louis (founded 1764) is located, so in a modern sense it would look the best, but Cahokia (founded 1699, although the native settlement there goes centuries back) would work as well. As with the California region, the Mississippi River region only has one province with trade bonuses, which makes it reasonable to add another.

POTAWATOMI - Important Center of Trade. Fort Detroit was founded in 1701, but the strategic value of the location should be obvious. Also, the Ohio trade region has ZERO provinces with bonuses, so putting at least one in seems eminently logical. Technically, since there are estuaries into the Caspian Sea, the province could alternatively be considered the estuary for the Detroit River (but that seems a bit weird, and, anyway, the bonuses aren't as good).

HOCHLEGA - Important Center of Trade. Montreal was founded in 1642, and its location at the confluence of the Ottawa and St. Lawrence Rivers made the region important economically even before its founding. Again, the St Lawrence region only has one other bonus province, but even then, the province would seem to merit bonuses in any case...

LENAPE - Estuary for the Delaware River. Yes, technically Lanape isn't a coastal province (it gets cut off by Delaware), but it is where Philadelphia (founded 1682) is. If necessary, being non-coastal, it could be a Major Center of Trade instead. Obviously the East Coast of the US should have more than one trade bonus province, although this one is a bit close to the one that already exists (Manhattan), which may be reasons for disqualification. Then again, it's no worse than several instances in Europe or India I could mention...

CHESAPEAKE - Estuary for the James, Potomac, and Susquehanna Rivers (Can we have three? Technically the James is the only one in the province, but it's the least famous of the three, and the Chesapeake Bay is the estuary for all three). Other than the fact the trade region is named after it, Chesapeake is the location of the first permanent English settlement in North America. Its strategic location is the reason that the main US Naval base is located there today. Conversely, while the Norfolk metro area is pretty big, it's hardly as iconic as New York or Philadelphia (or Boston, which is getting skipped over in this list), and adding it may start to crowd the region (but then again, see above).

HAVANA - Important Center of Trade. I'm pretty shocked this wasn't in before; Havana was the center of Spanish control and trade for the Caribbean during the entire game period. Plus the Caribbean region doesn't have a single province with a trade bonus. This is one that should definitely be added.

TLAPANEC - Important Center of Trade. Acapulco was the main harbor on the Pacific coast of Spanish Mexico, and was the point of departure and return for the famous Manila galleons which crossed the Pacific going to and from the Philippines.

PANAMA - Important Center of Trade. Basically all that I said for Havana, only moved a few hundred miles south. Again, one that definitely needs to be in.

CARTAGENA - Important Center of Trade. This is one of the more iffy ones, since it is so close to Panama. But it was one of the anchors of the Spanish Empire, and since the Panama region doesn't have any provinces at the moment with bonuses, putting in two shouldn't hurt.

BELEM - Estuary for the Amazon River. This is by far the most iffy of the bunch. Yes, Belem was founded in 1616, which is suitably early, but the Amazon wasn't really much of a trade route for much of the game. Then again, the Amazon region doesn't have a province with a bonus, and, hey, it is the freakin' AMAZON after all. It kind of deserves it just for that alone. (Note that I've skipped over the Orinoco, which despite its size doesn't really deserve an estuary province).

ROMA - Estuary for the Tiber River. Why do the Thames, Seine, and even the Ems get estuary bonuses and not the Tiber? Come on, give the Pope a bit of a hand here to help out against the rapacious rulers of Urbino, Tuscany, and so on!

CAYOR - Estuary for the Senegal River. The French founded St Louis at the mouth of the river in 1659, but, over and beyond that, the province also includes Dakar, which has had some sort of European presence since very shortly after the game period starts (1456, more formally in 1536).

SOFALA or QUELIMANE - Estuary for the Zambezi River. While it's obvious that one of the two Sofala provinces should get a bonus for all the trade coming down from Mutapa, it's a bit tricky which one to assign it to. Sofala itself was the main trading center, but it's not terribly close to the Zambezi, unlike Quelimane (which is close, but not quite at, the river's mouth). Either would work fine. Just making Sofala a Major Center of Trade, however, seems a bit excessive for a trade region that already has two, though. (Note, again, that I have skipped another major river, the Congo, which, like the Orinoco, never saw much in the way of trade or had much of a trade settlement at its mouth).

QARAQALPAK - Estuary for the Amu Darya River. This may raise some eyebrows, but (a) Khwarezm has been a major trade area since ancient times and (b) if we can have estuaries into the Caspian Sea, why not the Aral?

GOA - Important Center of Trade. What? This wasn't one already? I clicked the province several times just to make sure I wasn't missing it. Like Havana and Panama, one that is very noticeable by its absence. India is so cluttered with this sort of province that adding one more surely won't matter much, especially since the province has a trade region named after it!

PEGU - Estuary for the Irrawaddy River. Sort of an iffy one, but Pegu did become powerful from its position at the mouth of the river.

HAI PHONG - Estuary for the Red River. One of the main trade routes in southern China and northern Vietnam. The Red River valley was the heart of Dai Viet, and as such should be among those that gets an estuary bonus.

MANILA - Important Center of Trade. The Philippines region doesn't have a province with trade bonuses, so obviously Manila would be the choice here. Manila was the focus of Spanish trade in the region, as well as being the destination for the galleons that came once a year from Acapulco (see Tlapanec above).

EORA - Important Center of Trade. Although Australia wasn't settled until the very end of the game period, making the province that would include Sydney an important center of trade makes sense. And the region has no other provinces with bonuses as well.


Well, that's my list of provinces that I believe should have trade bonuses added to them. I'd love to see some or all of them implemented into the game, as I believe they would help add some interesting variety and strategy to the trade/colonization game.

 

[Sorenzo]

I endorse anything that makes the map more interesting.

Also, a lot of the Americas are extremely bland, as you point out. And none of these suggestions are unwarranted.

 

[Emre Yigit]

I would guess that estuary bonuses are there for rivers that are a) navigable, and b) are capable of carrying trade. Some of the in-game estuaries are already debatable (eg Barcelona. The Besos?!). But comparing the Tiber (often sited-up, unnavigable for more than 1/4 of its length during this time period) and therefore Rome to provinces such as Lisbon, Bessarabia or Suzhou is taking things a little too far.

I can see advantages of a trade node bonus in Havana, the Philippines or Australia, but your reasoning that one existed in history so there should be one in EU4 is, I think, not quite right. The trade nodes (with their bonuses) in Europe, Asia and in Africa are there because they were there at the game start and continued to be important, sometimes due to some natural advantage. The Havana etc trade nodes were created later; in an alternate timeline where all the Caribbean (bar Havana) is held by France, but Havana is held by Spain, why should Spain have a bonus to its trade? The same reasoning cannot be applied to most of the Old World centres of trade. Canton, Constantinople, Antwerp, etc have good reason to flourish even if all surrounding provinces are held by someone else (as indeed they were, sometimes).

WRT to your other suggestions, TBH I have little knowledge of those places, so I'll go along with what you're saying. My suggestion, however, would be (formally) to grant estuary bonuses rather than centre of trade ones.

 

[Hexmage]

They could add events that change areas into center of trades based on a couple of conditions. One of the conditions could be that its under control of a nation that has at least X% of the trade power in that region, another could be that it needs to have the potential to be a trade center (think river or such).

 

[olm]

I would add Narva as estuary for the Narva River. Through Narva river and Lake Peipus trade reached to Pskov and Dorpat.

 

[Demetrios]

I would guess that estuary bonuses are there for rivers that are a) navigable, and b) are capable of carrying trade. Some of the in-game estuaries are already debatable (eg Barcelona. The Besos?!). But comparing the Tiber (often sited-up, unnavigable for more than 1/4 of its length during this time period) and therefore Rome to provinces such as Lisbon, Bessarabia or Suzhou is taking things a little too far.

I can see advantages of a trade node bonus in Havana, the Philippines or Australia, but your reasoning that one existed in history so there should be one in EU4 is, I think, not quite right. The trade nodes (with their bonuses) in Europe, Asia and in Africa are there because they were there at the game start and continued to be important, sometimes due to some natural advantage. The Havana etc trade nodes were created later; in an alternate timeline where all the Caribbean (bar Havana) is held by France, but Havana is held by Spain, why should Spain have a bonus to its trade? The same reasoning cannot be applied to most of the Old World centres of trade. Canton, Constantinople, Antwerp, etc have good reason to flourish even if all surrounding provinces are held by someone else (as indeed they were, sometimes).

WRT to your other suggestions, TBH I have little knowledge of those places, so I'll go along with what you're saying. My suggestion, however, would be (formally) to grant estuary bonuses rather than centre of trade ones.

Barcelona's is for the Ebro. Odd, since Barcelona isn't on the Ebro, but then again the mouth of the river is in the province.

And if you look at the map, there are several "Important Centers of Trade" that weren't settled at the beginning of the game. The strangest would be the one way up in northern Siberia, but there's one in San Francisco Bay and two in Brazil (Bahia and Rio de Janeiro) as well that I can remember right off. (Gold Coast as well, but at least that's right next to a relatively well settled area). So there is ample precedent for Important Centers of Trade in not-yet settled zones...

 

[Hodges7885]

CHESAPEAKE - Estuary for the James, Potomac, and Susquehanna Rivers (Can we have three? Technically the James is the only one in the province, but it's the least famous of the three, and the Chesapeake Bay is the estuary for all three). Other than the fact the trade region is named after it, Chesapeake is the location of the first permanent English settlement in North America. Its strategic location is the reason that the main US Naval base is located there today. Conversely, while the Norfolk metro area is pretty big, it's hardly as iconic as New York or Philadelphia (or Boston, which is getting skipped over in this list), and adding it may start to crowd the region (but then again, see above).

One quibble on the Chesapeake proposal. While the Potomac and Sesquehanna may be more famous than the James today (debatable about the Sesquehanna), in the Colonial era that falls within the game's timeline, the James was far and away more significant than the others as most of the major settlements of the Virginia Colony were on it, including the first, Jamestown. Other Virginia rivers such as the York and Rappahannock, which also flow into the Bay, were at least of comparable importance to the Potomac during the period as hubs of the extensive plantation network. That said, a simple Chesapeake estuary or COT modifier would definitely be appropriate given its significance in the development of Eastern North America.

Now, this might be a little East Coast bias talking, but two other places that were vital during the colonial development of ENA that get no love are Charleston Harbor (the Cooper and Ashley rivers) and the Delaware River. Four estuary modifiers in one region is probably overkill, but just food for thought.

And as a possibly uninteresting side note, those final words of John Sedgwick in your sig were spoken about a 20 minute drive from my house.

 

[987655mm]

I fully agree! Adding more important center of trades will encourage conflict and if they are making the game more historical by doing that then I really fail to see a huge problem

 

[Demetrios]

One quibble on the Chesapeake proposal. While the Potomac and Sesquehanna may be more famous than the James today (debatable about the Sesquehanna), in the Colonial era that falls within the game's timeline, the James was far and away more significant than the others as most of the major settlements of the Virginia Colony were on it, including the first, Jamestown. Other Virginia rivers such as the York and Rappahannock, which also flow into the Bay, were at least of comparable importance to the Potomac during the period as hubs of the extensive plantation network. That said, a simple Chesapeake estuary or COT modifier would definitely be appropriate given its significance in the development of Eastern North America.

Now, this might be a little East Coast bias talking, but two other places that were vital during the colonial development of ENA that get no love are Charleston Harbor (the Cooper and Ashley rivers) and the Delaware River. Four estuary modifiers in one region is probably overkill, but just food for thought.

And as a possibly uninteresting side note, those final words of John Sedgwick in your sig were spoken about a 20 minute drive from my house.

The Delaware River (Lanape) was one of my suggestions; granted Lanape doesn't quite touch the ocean as a proper estuary province should, but it's very close and the location of Philadelphia outweighs any quibbles on the matter in my mind. And I did indeed consider Charleston, and Boston, as Centers of Trade rather than Estuaries. I'm not sure how many of them we could reasonably stuff along the east coast of the US without getting carried away. Then again, given the large number of trade provinces in Europe, India, and China, adding a few more to the US doesn't seem terribly outlandish. I'm reminded of a recent post in another trade thread where someone was complaining how when playing as the US they had very poor trade power due to a lot of downstream trade pull from Europe - well, having several more trade provinces for the Chesapeake trade region would certainly help remedy that problem! And it would make the area more competitive between the various European powers (as, indeed, it was in real history). In fact, I realized I should have included the province Pittsburgh is in (I don't have the map pulled up so I'm not sure exactly which one it is) simply because its strategic location along the lines of trade and the resultant conflict between the UK and France was one of the main reasons for the outbreak of a world-spanning war...

One main thing about the trade provinces - as 98765mm says in the post above this one, they encourage competition and conflict. If you can colonize or conquer a trade province first, you get great bonuses; if you don't get there first and if you want to gain power in a region, you plot to take them away from whoever owns them. They encourage logical and historical colonization and expansion. so, in my opinion, the more the merrier!

 

[Demetrios]

Suggestions for new Estuary and Important Centers of Trade II: The Tradening

So after a bit of discussion in this thread and a few thoughts on my own, here are a few more recommendations for trade bonus provinces:


HONNIASONT - Important Center of Trade. It's the trade center that (partially) started the Seven Years War! The location of Pittsburgh, where the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers meet to form the Ohio is of course of prime strategic value. Owning it helps control the trade in the Ohio River valley, so it makes sense for it to be a province that would do so as well in game terms. Plus, I only recommended one other province in the trade region in the original post, so adding a second on here actually evens out things a bit.

MASSACHUSETTS - Important Center of Trade. Not only is it the location of Boston, it was one of the first areas heavily settled in the eastern US. While, technically, Plymouth was just over the province border to the south, the settlements that were built here only a few years later rapidly eclipsed those of its southern neighbor.

SANTEE - Estuary for the Santee River. Huh, I didn't know that the Santee is the second-longest river along the US East Coast until just now. And while Charleston isn't technically on the Santee, it is in the province itself, and was one of the main hubs of early colonization.

BARAHONAS - Important Center of Trade. Santo Domingo is the oldest European city in the Americas and has always been a major center in the Caribbean. If Havana gives players a bit of a bonus in colonizing Cuba, Barahonas should do the same for Hispaniola.

CUMANA - Estuary for the Orinoco. OK, that's stretching it a bit, but the province does get almost to the Orinoco delta. And Cumana, again, was an early European settlement and a major focus of trade in the game period. If we can't quite stretch the meaning of "Estuary" for one province over, we can just make it a Center of Trade. It just seems wrong that the Orinoco doesn't get an Estuary province when being such a major river. (Sadly, I don't think there's much we can do about the Congo; there's not much of an option there unless we really stretch things and say Luanda controls the Congo Estuary. Nah, didn't think so either).

This would bring the trade provinces in Chesapeake to five, and Caribbean to three. It would also make the regions much more interesting and dynamic when it comes to colonizing, while hopefully not getting too crowded (but then again, look at Europe and India in comparison).


The Girin trade region is quite bereft of trade provinces as well, but I'm not familiar enough with the region to make any calls there. Perhaps Girin itself as an Important Center of Trade, and/or Deren as the Amur Estuary?

 

[nalfz]

Crete and Morea definitely need CoTs
They were the only reason venice was able to trade with the levant, which was responsible for like 90% of their income. Owning those provinces should be an enormous benefit to trade, as it was in history
Here's a nice map

 

[Elfryc]

Crete and Morea definitely need CoTs
They were the only reason venice was able to trade with the levant, which was responsible for like 90% of their income. Owning those provinces should be an enormous benefit to trade, as it was in history
Here's a nice map

Isn't this represented by Trade Posts yet?

 

[ringhloth]

What I really want is centers of trade to shift. A lot of CoTs weren't CoTs for most of the period. London, for instance, was by no means a bigger center of trade than Amsterdam until well into the 17th, maybe even the early 18th century (perhaps a DHE for the competition between the Netherlands and England to finish with one of the countries gaining decisive naval, colonial, and CoT bonuses over the other). AFAIK there are numerous trade posts like Goa, Macua, or an early Hong Kong which would never have been trade posts if they weren't owned by Europeans. It'd even be cool if estuary provinces in colonial areas only game their bonuses once most of the river had been colonized.

 

[Homer2101]

Looks like a good idea on the whole, at least as far as North America and the Caribbean go. The big port cities of the time -- Havana, Philadelphia, Boston, Rio, and New York, did not become so by accident or caprice. They were excellent natural deep-water harbors, almost always on navigable rivers. They held immense value, and that value should be represented in-game. Perhaps they should not be important centers of trade, with the full +20 to trade power, but at least a +10 river estuary modifier would be appropriate. I don't really see "Estuary" in EU4 as requiring an actual estuary -- it's just a way of denoting the approximate mouth(s) of a navigable river without the various other factors that allowed or would have realistically allowed that province to become a major trading center.

Also, much as I love New York City, it did not become the dominant East Coast port until the opening of the Erie Canal, which gave New York City easy access to the Midwest and Canada via the Great Lakes. So it shouldn't be the only province with trade bonuses in the Chesapeake node, because that's just silly.

 

[Hodges7885]

The Delaware River (Lanape) was one of my suggestions; granted Lanape doesn't quite touch the ocean as a proper estuary province should, but it's very close and the location of Philadelphia outweighs any quibbles on the matter in my mind. And I did indeed consider Charleston, and Boston, as Centers of Trade rather than Estuaries. I'm not sure how many of them we could reasonably stuff along the east coast of the US without getting carried away. Then again, given the large number of trade provinces in Europe, India, and China, adding a few more to the US doesn't seem terribly outlandish. I'm reminded of a recent post in another trade thread where someone was complaining how when playing as the US they had very poor trade power due to a lot of downstream trade pull from Europe - well, having several more trade provinces for the Chesapeake trade region would certainly help remedy that problem! And it would make the area more competitive between the various European powers (as, indeed, it was in real history). In fact, I realized I should have included the province Pittsburgh is in (I don't have the map pulled up so I'm not sure exactly which one it is) simply because its strategic location along the lines of trade and the resultant conflict between the UK and France was one of the main reasons for the outbreak of a world-spanning war...

One main thing about the trade provinces - as 98765mm says in the post above this one, they encourage competition and conflict. If you can colonize or conquer a trade province first, you get great bonuses; if you don't get there first and if you want to gain power in a region, you plot to take them away from whoever owns them. They encourage logical and historical colonization and expansion. so, in my opinion, the more the merrier!

Sorry about that, wrote the post in two sittings and forgot about your Lenape suggestion when I came back to it. Anyways, completely agree, the more the merrier.

What I really want is centers of trade to shift. A lot of CoTs weren't CoTs for most of the period. London, for instance, was by no means a bigger center of trade than Amsterdam until well into the 17th, maybe even the early 18th century (perhaps a DHE for the competition between the Netherlands and England to finish with one of the countries gaining decisive naval, colonial, and CoT bonuses over the other). AFAIK there are numerous trade posts like Goa, Macua, or an early Hong Kong which would never have been trade posts if they weren't owned by Europeans. It'd even be cool if estuary provinces in colonial areas only game their bonuses once most of the river had been colonized.

Very true and Amsterdam did not become a major center of trade until after the sack of Antwerp by the Spanish and closure of the Scheldt estuary as part of the peace between Spain and the United Provinces.

 

[Zenith Darksea]

Lothian - estuary for the River Forth. Or, alternatively, Northumbria - estuary for the river Tweed.

 

[Squirrelloid]

While the Congo probably doesn't need an estuary bonus, Mbanza-Kongo definitely deserves a center of trade (and *had* one until 1.8). It's tied for biggest city in sub-saharan Africa during the period, was the biggest sub-equatorial African city, rivals the size of most major European cities before 1700, and was an important center of trade between the Kingdom of Kongo and the Portugese. Mbanza-Kongo was important enough to receive papal emissaries, and had the first Cathedral in sub-saharan Africa in the mid-16th century.

 

[Comrade Chaos]

If Potawatomi becomes a CoT, I will visit Mackinac Island.

 

[Red John]

There's a lovely new suggestion thread for suggestions.

Unless you're looking for more active feedback rather than putting forth a proper suggestion, you may wish to post there.

 

[Demetrios]

If Potawatomi becomes a CoT, I will visit Mackinac Island.

It's funny, I was debating which of the two to put on the list. Basically since Detroit is in a slightly better position, and actually historically won out in the end, was the reason I chose it.