Suggestions for making tall playing the real alternative

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Bibor

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One of the issues in EU4 is that all various bonuses from ideas are not changing game play much. For tall nation it is reasonable to be somewhat weaker militarily, but if it could gain some significant diplomatic bonuses for defensive alliances, for example, or to diplomatic actions in general, it could compensate for lack of raw military power. And that might be something that could be placed in idea group(s) that wouldn't be very useful for wide play.

The way currently alliances work does not favor a tall player. You are forced to declare wars just to manipulate the diplomatic scene (breaking alliances & forcing truces), i.e. options for peaceful diplomacy are very limited. This is not an issue if you are geographically in a good defensive position, but othwerse you might as well expand just to protect your core lands from harm.
 

alexti

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The way currently alliances work does not favor a tall player. You are forced to declare wars just to manipulate the diplomatic scene (breaking alliances & forcing truces), i.e. options for peaceful diplomacy are very limited. This is not an issue if you are geographically in a good defensive position, but othwerse you might as well expand just to protect your core lands from harm.
Currently diplomacy has no concept of "tall" or "wide" player. It generally favours warmongering player (regardless of whether tall or wide), simply because many diplomatic options are only available in the peace treaty. That's why I have suggested that adding more diplomatic options favouring tall (or more precisely non-aggressive) nations would at the same time strengthen tall play and add some game play to it.
 

Bibor

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Currently diplomacy has no concept of "tall" or "wide" player. It generally favours warmongering player (regardless of whether tall or wide)

A tall player can't really be a warmonger, though, because adverse effects of war far outstrip the benefits. I could see "tall warmonger" work as England, Morocco, Scandinavia or some such geographically isolated regions where your merchant navy and lands can be easily(TM) protected.

I agree with your comment that peacedeals offer too many options compared to regular diplomacy. Threathening wars and bribery should be equally powerful. Why are there no options to support a CTA via finances, rather than expecing troop support? And then there's that gamey "Risk board game" factor of troops coming over from Spain to Italy via hostile land territory in less than a year.
 

alexti

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A tall player can't really be a warmonger, though, because adverse effects of war far outstrip the benefits. I could see "tall warmonger" work as England, Morocco, Scandinavia or some such geographically isolated regions where your merchant navy and lands can be easily(TM) protected.
You can certainly be a warmonger and play tall. What "adverse effects" are you thinking about? - in EU4 there is very little disadvantage in being at war (other than it being tedious and bogging down the game). There are some limitations (such as making new alliances or passing HRE reforms), but they are fairly minor unless you are really warring non-stop. The issue is mostly that it feels a waste of (real world) time to fight a war with so little to gain from it. The worst part is that in the tall game play you lose the most interesting decision (choosing what land to take) of the war.

I agree with your comment that peacedeals offer too many options compared to regular diplomacy. Threathening wars and bribery should be equally powerful. Why are there no options to support a CTA via finances, rather than expecing troop support?
I would like to see something different from the current options. Some tools to maintain the balance of power (for example, by collection of "non-aggressive" nation being able to demand liberation of countries from the recent aggressor) and to conduct trade peacefully (without the need to control lots of land) would go a long way towards opening more ways of playing the game.
 

Sfan

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To be honest, the main issue to tall play is imho what some people already said. It offers less possibilities.
It's not like you don't take your economy, your merchant placement, your prosperity, your development, your state edicts, your buildings or your accepted cultures into account when you WC. Actually, to pull off impressive paint-the-map results as a small nation, you need to minmax that as if you were playing tall. While on the other hand playing tall means you ignore 2/3 of the mechanics of the game.
Most of us don't play tall mostly because once you know all the basic mechanics and all the events (which takes several hundreds of hours to be fair), it's purely about strategy and optimization, and unless you intentionally cripple yourself with new rules or you like spending 10 minutes in speed 8 doing nothing but waiting for events, you can't really /not/ blob.

Whenever I set myself a rule like my last one of "play Kongo and don't go out of Africa", the result is that I just spent 1 minute waiting for a truce in speed 5 even if my manpower is full and I have 50k ducats and free neighbours, and I end campaign in 1700 even if I feel like I wasted decades doing nothing. I can't force myself to intentionally be weaker. I have no revolts, max stab, prosperity everywhere, I drown in monarch points, my trade is as good as it may be. The only thing I can do is to conquer some land to bring instability in my game and keep it challenging (arguably I can play Very Hard, but I like ending up with a beautiful stable Empire, I have the inner soul of a tall player, so I don't want to see myself ending up with a completely crippled nation that fought to the last drop of blood to get 10 more development).

To sum it up, it's not that the fun is in the painting, it's that the fun is in playing well and doing nice things, and once you play well and have built something nice, you literally have to intentionally lose minutes of your life waiting if you want not to blob.

I think the situation works fine as it is, because there is another strategy game who is mostly based on roleplay and goes way deeper in terms of revolts management, building your cities, playing the diplomatic long term game and really writing meaningful history. It's called Crusader Kings II.

The only way you could give a viable alternative to blobbing is by making peacetime more interesting, mostly with chain of events like CKII. But do we really want to spend EU4 peacetime trying to place a cannibal bastard raja homosexual at the head of the Papacy? I think Paradox is satisfied with the general state of CKII and EUIV as they are and I tend to agree.
 
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Senstrae

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There's been talk about why "wide" is preferred (optimal / more interesting), but without a detailed examination of the mechanics that support either playstyle. For example, AE, Coalition, Corruption, and Overextention, all in theory should hinder wide play, while Absolutism, Admin Efficiency, Reduced AE / Coring Cost, Fabricate Claim, Deus Vult / Imperialism / Nationalism CBs, etc. all encourage wide play. There's also broader concepts, like how total control of an end node is desirable for trade profit; or how developing up a province up is more expensive than taking an equal development amount of new land.

Personally, I find with each new expansion, the newly added gameplay elements are not very well cross-integrated, (with the exception of Development), do little to diversify how the game is played, and rarely receive follow-up attention. The biggest offender that comes to mind is Estates. It was advertised as a mechanic that would bring about more complexity to the internal country management aspect of the game. But I would say it failed at that promise; it is basically whack-a-mole with numbers attached. Once you've understood how to manipulate Estates at a basic level there's no further depth to it, no interesting decisions to make. As a result, peacetime gameplay was not enhanced, and many players find themselves still preferring the path of war. Beyond Estates though, I found it highly unusual for Paradox to introduce Corruption as this poorly thought out, arbitrary, short-term punishment for blobbing (which overlaps with AE and OE), and then later go back on it by introducing Absolutism. Given how celebrated Absolutism is vs how condemned Corruption is, I don't think it would be practical to try and discourage "wide" play through overt nerfs, even if I dislike how pro-blobbing mechanics are shaping the game. Instead, a better solution would be to make "tall" gameplay more attractive by making it more meaningful and interesting, with possibly added incentives. For example, what if there was a trade mechanic that preferred having a diverse amount of trading partners in your near vicinity? This would give tall players an incentive not to blob, to keep smaller neighbors safe, and maybe also encourage the breaking up of AI blobs.

Unfortunately the game is late in its cycle, and I don't have much confidence that we'll see an update that introduces a mechanic that truly changes how the game is played. The best example I can think of is Institutions, however Paradox's reluctance to address its criticisms (such as worldwide full institution embracement in the 1700s) shows to me that they're unwilling to devote more resources than necessary to make mechanics within the game more cohesive to the whole experience. On the other hand, Sailors did get a revisit, however, instead of becoming this new exciting gameplay concept that makes naval combat relevant, they just made Sailors have some small amount meaning, rather than the absolute meaninglessness they had previously. Unless the game is changed in a severe way, I think "wide" will remain in preference, and the 1700s+ will continue to see reduced play outside of WC attempts.
 

Bibor

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You can certainly be a warmonger and play tall. What "adverse effects" are you thinking about? - in EU4 there is very little disadvantage in being at war (other than it being tedious and bogging down the game).

You inevitably suffer devastation, which turns off prosperity, which in turn grants -10% dev and +25% goods produced. At high levels of development, that's a quite significant blow. Depending on the number of coastal provinces you own, your navy might also not be strong enough to prevent inevitable losses and/or long pauses in trade steering. A full blockade is a -50% penalty on goods produced. In total, a relatively minor war can cost you a thousand ducats, even more.

If you want to completely ruin a large nation like Ming, France or Ottomans, I'd argue that sieging down every province to 100% devastation and then peacing out for 0% warscore will do more harm to it on the long run than taking 10 high dev provinces from them.
 

Sfan

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You do not suffer devastation if you win the war. And humans win almost every war.
 

alexti

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You inevitably suffer devastation, which turns off prosperity, which in turn grants -10% dev and +25% goods produced. At high levels of development, that's a quite significant blow. Depending on the number of coastal provinces you own, your navy might also not be strong enough to prevent inevitable losses and/or long pauses in trade steering. A full blockade is a -50% penalty on goods produced. In total, a relatively minor war can cost you a thousand ducats, even more.
I don't believe you suffer any devastation from being at war. Sure, as a small nation you have a bit less flexibility and you can't lure the enemy into some swamplands in the middle of your vast territory like large nation can, but at the same time, it's much easier for you to defend your territory since you have much higher ratio of units/province than the wide nation. You will lose some income if the enemy has superior fleet, but that's a choice of going into the wars where you side doesn't have naval superiority. It still might be worthwhile if you gain more trade power from the occupied land than you lose due to trade steering. Or simply if you feel that you gain more than the lost income worth. So overall it all seems quite similar to playing wide - all those considerations apply. Some war can be costly, but it's not something inherent to being at war.
 

Bibor

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I don't believe you suffer any devastation from being at war. Sure, as a small nation you have a bit less flexibility and you can't lure the enemy into some swamplands in the middle of your vast territory like large nation can, but at the same time, it's much easier for you to defend your territory since you have much higher ratio of units/province than the wide nation. You will lose some income if the enemy has superior fleet, but that's a choice of going into the wars where you side doesn't have naval superiority. It still might be worthwhile if you gain more trade power from the occupied land than you lose due to trade steering. Or simply if you feel that you gain more than the lost income worth. So overall it all seems quite similar to playing wide - all those considerations apply. Some war can be costly, but it's not something inherent to being at war.

Due to new combat AI logic, the AI loves nothing more than to siege down lands where it isn't threathened - which means a high chance it will go after your lands, while your troops are away chasing war contribution.
An offensive tall player will most probably be interested in breaking alliances and other warscore diplomatic options, but is primarily interested in collecting favors (apart from the occasional conquest war). Since war contribution is calculated by joining battles, it's safe to presume you want your armies and fleets to be where the majority of enemy stacks are, usually away from your land. As I stated previously, manpower is not a problem for a tall nation, since manpower scales awesomely with buildings - forcelimits are. And by mid to late game, it's not unusual for beliggerents to field up to 100k total troops, so you can't spare an odd 30k stack to defend your home. Sure, you could raise 30k mercenaries and go over forcelimit, but that's even more expensive.

Currently, each 10 development adds 1 forcelimit. Thus, a 30-dev province, which is reasonably average for a tall player, adss a total of max 5 per province with +2 building. Compare that to the +2500 manpower that gets doubled with buildings for 10 military development. Yep, that's 5000 manpower per province.

So, a 20 province tall nation with an average of 30 dev would have 20*5= 100 forcelimit, and 20*5000 = 100k manpower. Yes, Ironically tall nations have a way easier time fielding regular troops instead of going full merc, because manpower buildings scale way better for a tall player, while forcelimit buildings favor blobby empires. It evens out at tech 22, though.
 
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alexti

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Due to new combat AI logic, the AI loves nothing more than to siege down lands where it isn't threathened - which means a high chance it will go after your lands, while your troops are away chasing war contribution.

An offensive tall player will most probably be interested in breaking alliances and other warscore diplomatic options, but is primarily interested in collecting favors (apart from the occasional conquest war). Since war contribution is calculated by joining battles, it's safe to presume you want your armies and fleets to be where the majority of enemy stacks are, usually away from your land.
That seems more like a result of poor play. There's little reason for a tall player (and really for any player beyond the minor starts) to collect favors (their main use is to pay allies for your wars of conquest, but if you are not expanding you can just as well invite allies by promising them land). One can also get fairly good results by intercepting AI stacks on the approach. In any case, if the enemy occupies your land with something they must have troops there, so you can just stay and fight them.

As I stated previously, manpower is not a problem for a tall nation, since manpower scales awesomely with buildings - forcelimits are. And by mid to late game, it's not unusual for beliggerents to field up to 100k total troops, so you can't spare an odd 30k stack to defend your home. Sure, you could raise 30k mercenaries and go over forcelimit, but that's even more expensive.

Currently, each 10 development adds 1 forcelimit. Thus, a 30-dev province, which is reasonably average for a tall player, adss a total of max 5 per province with +2 building. Compare that to the +2500 manpower that gets doubled with buildings for 10 military development. Yep, that's 5000 manpower per province.

So, a 20 province tall nation with an average of 30 dev would have 20*5= 100 forcelimit, and 20*5000 = 100k manpower. Yes, Ironically tall nations have a way easier time fielding regular troops instead of going full merc, because manpower buildings scale way better for a tall player, while forcelimit buildings favor blobby empires. It evens out at tech 22, though.
If you were fighting as aggressively as a blobbing player you would likely have problems with manpower too. 5000 manpower per province isn't very much unless you have a lot of provinces. But there is nothing wrong with using mercs and going over FL - it's practically a norm for any kind of play (at least on VH). What are going to spend money on anyway?
 

bbqftw

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for many cases, the fort money you spent defending your prosp can also be spent on mercing over FL and just junking the enemy stacks. In 1400/1500 wars you get the further bonus that once you do that its a full siege + lowered maintenance war.

I mean sure I'd build a fort on a 10 dev gold province but that's it, and even that is not clearly an amazing investment.
 

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for many cases, the fort money you spent defending your prosp can also be spent on mercing over FL and just junking the enemy stacks. In 1400/1500 wars you get the further bonus that once you do that its a full siege + lowered maintenance war.

I mean sure I'd build a fort on a 10 dev gold province but that's it, and even that is not clearly an amazing investment.

Well I, as a tall/role player only really build forts for immersion because having none at all just feels wrong even though anything beyond important choke point forts are basically wasted money.

Anyway, I absoloutely love the idea of changing/upgrading your trade good in a province once it reaches a certain development threshold like 20/30 or w/e. The edict and estates and prosperity doesnt really cut it for me when it comes to tall playing, I have to admit, I do get bored for decades sometimes, sitting at speed 5 and watching the AI play.

A crusader kings light feature would be lovely, so my Dynasty can at least have some faces and I start caring about them a little instead of instantly dishereting every garbage heir I get.
 

Bibor

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I mean sure I'd build a fort on a 10 dev gold province but that's it, and even that is not clearly an amazing investment.

I use forts as a blocking and herding tool. Sending a stack to deal with Bosnian rebels in Siberia after a full annex costs me more manpower, money and primarily nerves than having a level 2 fort in Vidin and Kosovo.
 

Sfan

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It costs you more money than having a level 2 fort? Allow me to doubt that. You deal with these 2 rebels by creating a few mercs in Siberia, that's not even the price of building 2 forts. It's incomparable with the maintenance of these forts during the entirety of the game, even mothballed. It's usually 3 random infantry that go roaming around the country doing occupations.

And if you're talking about a 20k men stack in the lategame to say that you can't just build a few infantry mercs, then a level 2 fort will block them for two months. So well...
 

Kitten Wrangler

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1.) CBs and wargoals that do NOT give territory becoming as valuable as ones that do. To expect systems and mechanics to become as equally compelling as winning wars and militarily dominating your rivals is, IMO, wishful thinking. Instead, you should be promoting mechanics that discourage simply amassing more and more land, beyond simply vassals > territories once at state limit, and make using CBs like Trade Dispute, and wargoals like Humiliate and transfer Trade Power things you might actually pick over land, not just a tool to break alliances for a third party or something you take after picking out all the land AE and coring distances will let you acquire. I would also argue that some CBs, especially those that forbid the taking of territory and returning/revoking cores, should not inherently call all the allies on both sides into a massive conflict.

This is a really good approach, I like it a lot.

There's a common misconception that Tall Play has to mean an inwardly focused game, clicking on development and fiddling with estates. Whenever I play Tall, I still like to involve myself in as much war and international diplomacy as I can.
 

Bibor

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@Kitten Wrangler @Foefaller When having an opportunity to take a province that yields 5 ducats a year vs. 137 ducats as spoils of war, especially in the early game, I'd rather take the ducats. A humiliate rival CB with a few co-belligerents can net you up to a few hundred ducats and 300 mana which can easily be converted into 6-8 development of your already cored land with zero unrest and provide enough cash for the next, real war.
I'm a great advocate of "meaningful conquest".
 

bbqftw

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Frankly even in early game situations I prefer to kill nations straight out simply due to the probability that they will build a fort in their provinces. Especially OPMs...