Suggestions for making tall playing the real alternative

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FrogCrusher

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In fact, by reading you, I think you misaddressed your issues with the game. You don't want to play tall, you want a game more difficult and more realistic because you find it too easy. Am I right ? That's a completely different view than saying: I don't want to paint and I want to play tall or "make tall playing the real alternative".
 
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Seb19999

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So forget the word "punishing". What you are proposing is applying penalties on existing modifiers if you blob to much. This is my point, nothing more, nothing less. And again, that was exactly the purpose of corruption when it was introduced. It was bad and people didn't like it.
I don't say "let me blob", I say "give ideas with good gameplay that is not wide play". As far as I seen, this is not the case.

I remember that people didn't like corruption. I wrote in the beginning that I'm aware that most players want to expand rapidly and widely. So I'm totally okey with you saying that my ideas will spoil the game for you. I believe that some of the ideas make gameplay better, deeper (for example natural increase and decrease of development or cultural unity idea). It is not granted that they will make blobbing tedious or impossible. This depends on how this will be balanced.
 
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Seb19999

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In fact, by reading you, I think you misaddressed your issues with the game. You don't want to play tall, you want a game more difficult and more realistic because you find it too easy. Am I right ? That's a completely different view than saying: I don't want to paint and I want to play tall or "make tall playing the real alternative".

Realistic is a very tricky word when it comes to grand strategy game. But I definitely would like the game to be a little bit harder. At the same time I think that military conquest is relatively too easy in this game, that one can make it more tricky, dangerous without ruining the gameplay.
 

DaZelle

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Oh, it's one of these posts again.

I understand that there are two camps: people who want to do world conquest and people who want to have challenging game after year 1550.

Are you saying a world conquest isn't challenging after 1550? And since you claim the game is too easy, I assume you have already done a OPM WC on very hard. Because if you haven't, maybe you should try that.

I don't think that exact numbers are important (they should be balanced) but enhancing devastation and prosperity mechanics can really make tall playing a viable alternative to blobbing.

I think we all agree that playing tall is somehow boring right now. But I don't see how punishing a blobby style makes playing tall any more fun.

I can only suggest trying VH + no allies, this really spices up things and if you aren't playing a navally isolated position, any diplomatic mistake is your doom.

Especially the no allies part makes it way more interesting.

Exactly. Going tall doesn't mean avoiding conquest. It means conquering with purpose other than painting the map.

Do you conquer without purpose in a wc? It's even more important for a blobby style to get your priorities right. No1 cares about that land in siberia that makes your name look huge.


We have had several of these posts like "we need a new desaster mechanic for huge countries, they are too stable" or "admin ideas are too op, nerf ccr to 10%". People play tall/slow and then complain that the game is too easy. Ofc your country is stable when you only conquer same culture, same religion land and you take 1 province a year. Yeah, that's not challenging.

The question whether a wc should be possible in a sandbox game like eu4 without a real goal to achieve is debateable. But I just don't get why people who mostly play tall want to nerf the blobby style? They never have to face real blobbers in their games, why do they care? And this is often combined with, I am sorry, some kind of arrogance...."yeah mindless blobbing", "blobbing too easy", "I want a challenge", "I want to conquer with purpose"....

Just my thoughts :D
 

FrogCrusher

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I remember that people didn't like corruption. I wrote in the beginning that I'm aware that most players want to expand rapidly and widely. So I'm totally okey with you saying that my ideas will spoil the game for you.
I didn't write that you want to spoil *my* game. I am not against adding difficulties or new mechanics in diplomacy etc... But I would like those changes could give me fun and rewards.
Sorry if I do not see fun or rewards in CU/AU. It has nothing to do with "let me play wide as crazy", really.
 

FrogCrusher

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Realistic is a very tricky word when it comes to grand strategy game. But I definitely would like the game to be a little bit harder. At the same time I think that military conquest is relatively too easy in this game, that one can make it more tricky, dangerous without ruining the gameplay.
I can agree with that, sort of ;) And your propositions (indeed) aim at having military conquest less easy. Which is not playing tall is the alternative.
 

DaZelle

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Damn, forgot one quote. :p

I think that RU, CU and AU should have real impact on all monarch points cost : 70% unity gives +6% extra monarch point costs, 50% unity gives +12%.

Increasing monarch point cost does not increase the difficulty. It just forces you to play slower, and playing slower is easier (in general). And I think with the numbers you suggested, expansion might be completly dead. And since this game is all about expansion, you might kill the game as a whole.
 

inreadible

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Hi folks,

I understand that there are two camps: people who want to do world conquest and people who want to have challenging game after year 1550.

I'm in the second camp and I'm aware I'm in the minority. I only play weak OPM's and I find game boring when between 1500 and 1550 I become one of the great powers.

First I'll admit that I'm in the blobbing camp so I might be biased towards that. Second, why do I feel that these suggested changes wouldn't really change your situation at all, especially not to the right direction. With your suggestions you'd most likely be the same size super power in 1500-1550 and only the larger "challenging" AI nations would be smaller because they'd have fucked up with the unrest and such. Then you'd still not have anyone to challenge you and get bored anyway.

I don't mean to seem offensive but I see these threads quite often here, and while I respect everyone's opinion, I wouldn't want Paradox to implement any more artificial walls to prevent painting the map. Again, maybe I'm biased, but I feel that allowing people to blob doesn't exactly prevent others from playing tall. But the changes tall players want, do seem to be about preventing blobbers from playing the game.
 

FrogCrusher

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In a spirit of goodwill, I can made the following proposition for enjoying the tall play style. Add an attractiveness modifier for inventors active once the renaissance has been embraced in your country. By becoming attractive, you will be able to have better advisors, to educate your heir, to discover some breaking elements giving you bonuses etc... For historical example, think of Leonardo which was hired by François Ier of France.
The point is attractiveness will decrease with AE and if you are too belligerant. So you could have a trade-off between conquering and lowering attractiveness or having high attractiveness by playing tall and then be able to outperform your opponents with better ideas (for example, better light ships for trade efficiency, or better settler organization given more dev in colonies etc...). Shortly, a choice where rewards are on the two sides : if you paint the map, you will be bad at colonizing and trading compared to the ones who play tall. And, well, if you play wide, you have already plenty of rewards.
 

Canute VII

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In a spirit of goodwill, I can made the following proposition for enjoying the tall play style. Add an attractiveness modifier for inventors active once the renaissance has been embraced in your country. By becoming attractive, you will be able to have better advisors, to educate your heir, to discover some breaking elements giving you bonuses etc... For historical example, think of Leonardo which was hired by François Ier of France.
The point is attractiveness will decrease with AE and if you are too belligerant. So you could have a trade-off between conquering and lowering attractiveness or having high attractiveness by playing tall and then be able to outperform your opponents with better ideas (for example, better light ships for trade efficiency, or better settler organization given more dev in colonies etc...). Shortly, a choice where rewards are on the two sides : if you paint the map, you will be bad at colonizing and trading compared to the ones who play tall. And, well, if you play wide, you have already plenty of rewards.
That's the right spirit :)
 

Kalderus

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As others have indeed already suggested, instead of aiming to punish blobbing/wide play, perhaps the better alternative and best option is to add bonuses and encouragements to "playing tall".

One of the big issues obviously is that acquiring development through developing is simply less efficient than grabbing new clay/conquering (even despite religious disunity/separatism and autonomy). Although farmlands, luxury trade goods, an Orthodox icon, Florentine ideas, economic ideas, and the economic+quantity policy can mitigate this, most of these options are either situational, limited to a specific nation or religion, or not viable for most parts of the map (have fun developing in most of Persia, the Alps, or the Himalayas).

Perhaps there could be a development cost reduction tied to either prosperity, or a similar mechanic which goes up by staying at peace (or at least avoiding wars in your homeland) and spending money on local improvements of state provinces (buildings or some other new mechanic - ala opposite of corruption, so perhaps a "pay for national improvements" slider or something).

Perhaps by having high prosperity (or a high level of the hypothetical new mechanic's currency) your nation could not only have reduced development costs, but faster local autonomy reductions, cheaper and faster regiment/ship recruitment costs, increased manpower, tax and trade modifiers.

You could also perhaps receive a series of positive events for keeping your "national prosperity/attractiveness (as another poster suggested as a name)" high, that would boost your diplomatic reputation, maybe even grant an additional diplomat, merchant, colonist, and/or general/admiral, and decrease institution embracement cost (and similarly increase the rate of spread). These events could perhaps make other nations more willing to ally or royal marriage you (and maybe increase the chance of getting personal unions for Christian nations, and maybe have piety/mysticism boosts for Islamic nations - and religion-specific boosts for other faiths too).

Similarly, keeping your prosperity/attractiveness higher could allow you cheaper-higher-level advisors and maybe even a higher chance of rolling more skilled monarchs.

Additionally, this hypothetical mechanic could, as also suggested earlier, be tied to your development/province ratio, and both religious and cultural unity (with culture unions and promoted cultures giving no or only a very minor penalty).

All of these things would presumably make playing tall more attractive, although granted it's still a long way to making tall play "more fun" since even doing this would mostly just involve sitting around developing, fighting minor wars over humiliation, ducats, prestige, treaty-annulling, and returning cores, with a small bit of conquest mixed in. Sure, just clicking events and "develop province" isn't exactly as much as coordinating armies in huge wars, but at least it's a start to make it a bit easier if a player chooses to focus on tall play instead.
 

alexti

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That is being extremely tall(like a Free City), while a horde WC is to play extremely wide. There is many shades of grey considered tall and wide between than.
Consider a typical blobbing game where the player grabs nearby provinces of matching culture/religion, gets strategically located subjects, gets a solid foothold in TC regions and abandons the game due to boredom. To make a useful definition of "tall" game play one must define a game play substantially different from that. Not expanding (or expanding much less) is one (and most common) way of defining "tall" game play. Otherwise you are just calling some minor flavor of blobbing "tall" which is misleading because "tall" has an established meaning outside of EU4.

The definition of "tall" might be vague in explicit numbers, but the idea behind it is pretty clear: it means that the player is deliberately sacrificing territorial expansion of lands that yield low returns in favor of consolditating its powerbase with conqureing and then upgrading for high returns.
That's the same as what normal blobbing does (excluding Hordes and ultra-fast one tags that are entirely different type of gameplay).

A good example of a player "going tall" would be France currently within its historical borders expanding into Northern Italy with aims to fully accept (or convert) cultures and make those provinces a permament part of the French Empire that contribute as much to the French empire as, say, southern France.
And how blobbing would play out differently? I guess the main difference would be that blobber would abandon the game after reaching these goals and the tall player would continue playing without any further expansion?

Again. This is not punishing. It's about making it more challenging. If you like to paint the map but you are not the brilliant player you will not like those ideas and there is no way I can persuade you. So forgive me for not trying to.
The challenge is in making difficult non-obvious decisions. Changing 'c' in f(x) > c criteria doesn't create any additional challenge. Both blobbing and tall gameplay could use some more extra challenge. Vic2 has many good ideas in this direction, but coming with something similar that is thematically suitable for EU4 is not simple.
 

alexti

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All of these things would presumably make playing tall more attractive, although granted it's still a long way to making tall play "more fun"
I was just going to respond to your earlier points by saying that they won't make tall play any more interesting, but you've just said it yourself :) That's the real problem that many posters simply ignore - how to make tall play interesting? Whether it's a strong strategy or not is less important. After all, people play Ardalan on VH not because it's strong.
 

Nobak

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Now i know I made one crucial mistake. I entered tall vs blobbing debate instead of just posting my ideas for new mechanics in the game.

I disagree. Your ideas were going to be perceived as artificial roadblocks to the wide playstyle regardless, I think. But yeah, your opening line did put up a bit of a bad vibe IMO.

My issue with your suggestions is that where I think punish, you think challenge; and where you think challenge, I think tedium.

I would love to have something truly engaging that isn't conquest, but I haven't found it so far, and additional roadblocks to conquests just means more time not doing that. I, for one, don't really care whether the playstyles are equally efficient or or how the numbers compare or what, but I want them to be comparatively fun.
 

YuriiH

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There are quite a few options for playing tall, especially with tributaries being stupidly overpowered.
Unfortunately, those few options do not imply significant and involving gameplay. :(
Moreover, tributaries are not available for every tag, but for hordes designed to play wide, and for Celestial Empire available for Eastern cultures or Specific religions.
 

Dominion

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Of course playing tall lacks the depth playing wide has, but to weaken playing wide is not the solution.

And I actually dislike using "it lacks depth" in this context because the playstyle does have quite some depth to it. But since "it lacks depth compared to x" is the general consensus people just refuse to play it altogether.
 

Bibor

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So... I did a sample game for "going tall" as Tuscany. The worst detractors from this being an effective strategy are, in no particular order:
- terrain development penalties
- forcelimits
- building scaling
- province goods produced

1. There should be a way to reduce terrain development penalties. Prime candidate for this are the town hall-like buildings which are quite useless at the moment.
2. Force limits from buildings should scale with development. Instead of granting +1/+2 for land +2/+4 for naval, they should grant +0,5/+1 per 10 development.
3. Either we should be able to switch goods produced in a province, or there should be a way to make existing goods competitive in price. In my opinion, any province that reaches 10 production development should be able to switch out grain, fish and wool for something else, based on terrain. It could even be automatic.

The bottom line is that EU4, even with the development feature, was meant for us to cherrypick-develop certain provinces in an otherwise relatively low(er) overall development empire. Even a top developed large-sized kingdom (of like 30 provinces) with an average of 30 dev per province, which is by the way the starting dev of Rome or Paris, has no chance to be competitive in warfare to any of the big nations, without going all out on military ideas, primarily quantity, which is funny, considering manpower (thus most of the quantity tree) is useless.

Another minor gripe is that apart from trade, economic and perhaps exploration, none of the non-military ideas are of any use for a tall empire. All of the issues that you usually encounter: other religions, unrest, accepted cultures, cheaper this and that are a non-issue for a tall empire. Heck, I spawned 4 institutions myself and those I didn't I got in like 5 years.
 
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alexti

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3. Either we should be able to switch goods produced in a province, or there should be a way to make existing goods competitive in price. In my opinion, any province that reaches 10 production development should be able to switch out grain, fish and wool for something else, based on terrain. It could even be automatic.
I think that adding more dynamic trade, ability to choose goods (from the list of possible ones) and dynamic pricing would add a lot to the tall game play.

The bottom line is that EU4, even with the development feature, was meant for us to cherrypick-develop certain provinces in an otherwise relatively low(er) overall development empire. Even a top developed large-sized kingdom (of like 30 provinces) with an average of 30 dev per province, which is by the way the starting dev of Rome or Paris, has no chance to be competitive in warfare to any of the big nations, without going all out on military ideas, primarily quantity, which is funny, considering manpower (thus most of the quantity tree) is useless.

Another minor gripe is that apart from trade, economic and perhaps exploration, none of the non-military ideas are of any use for a tall empire. All of the issues that you usually encounter: other religions, unrest, accepted cultures, cheaper this and that are a non-issue for a tall empire. Heck, I spawned 4 institutions myself and those I didn't I got in like 5 years.
One of the issues in EU4 is that all various bonuses from ideas are not changing game play much. For tall nation it is reasonable to be somewhat weaker militarily, but if it could gain some significant diplomatic bonuses for defensive alliances, for example, or to diplomatic actions in general, it could compensate for lack of raw military power. And that might be something that could be placed in idea group(s) that wouldn't be very useful for wide play.