Suggestions for Formable Nations Rework

[Kosaki MacTavish]

With the latest dev diary has been locked, i decided to bring my suggestion about forming nations to its own thread. Special mention to @Meka66 as he share the same passion of formable nations as the rest of us. Also, he can fix some other bugs regarding formable nations.....

ARABIA

As you can see, forming Arabia is quite chalenging, as you need to fight both Axis and Allies to get all the required territories BEFORE forming it.

My suggestion about this is to cut down the initial required states to just need to control the entire Arabian Peninsula (not including Trucial States, Aden, and Qatar, which would be claimed despite them being held by UK). Still, you can form it as any MENA nations.

It would add claims in other Arabian states in the Asian Middle East, and unlock 3 separate decisions to core Iraq-Kuwait, Syria-Lebanon, and Palestine-Jordan, much like Byzantium's "Victory in" decisions.

After getting 2/3 of the 1st set, North African territories would be claimed and a second set of decisions regarding it would be unlocked so that we can core Egypt-Sudan, Libya-Tunisia, and the rest of North Africa.

Clicking all decisions (both 1st and 2nd set) above would led to final two sets of decisions (mutually exclusive):

Proclaim the Union, which would re-core any Arabian states in MENA that aren't cored early on, along with increased stability and compliance, and a decision to move the capital to either Cairo, Baghdad, or Damascus

or Restore the Caliphate (name and flag change) which increases war support and decrease resistance growth, and brings along a final set of decisions such as "Rashidun Expansion" into Iran, "Reclaim Caucasus" with cores up to Georgia and including Van, Erzurum, and Malatya in Turkey, and "Punish Anatolia" to take down Turkey and core the rest of it. Also with decision to move the capital either to Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, or Medina.

This is the furthest we can go, perhaps. With Pan-Arabism is at large at that time, and the Islamic majority of those Arabs longing for a caliphate....

Explanation:
1. Green: Unite the Peninsula (UK holdings not needed but will be cored/claimed), added claims to all Arab states in Asian continent
2. First set of decisions: Arab states in Asia (added claims to all Arab states in African continent after completing 2/3 of this set)

a. Lime: Integrate Iraq-Kuwait
b. Slightly dark green: Integrate Syria-Lebanon
c. Dark green: Integrate Palestine-Jordan, and Sinai​

3. Second set of decisions: Arab States in Africa (unlocked after completing 2/3 of the first set)

a. Lighter green: Egypt-Sudan
b. Light green: Libya-Tunis
c. Lighter green (but more dark than 3a): Aljazair and Morocco​

4. Two mutually exclusive final decisions (unlocked after completing all set of decisions)

a. Proclaim the Union
b. Restore the Caliphate: unlock the 3rd set of decisions

i. Orange: Rashidi Expansion (Iran)
ii. Grey: Reclaim Caucasus (Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Tibriz, also Van, Erzurum and Malatya in Turkey)
iii. Red: Punish Anatolia (the rest of Asian Turkey + additional core/claim on Crete and Aegean Islands after clicking)
iv. Gold: Expand Vilayet of Khorasan (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tashkent, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyztan)
v. Light Grey: Avenge the Reconquista (Southern 2/3 of Iberia and Balearic Islands)
vi. Indigo: Establish Vilayet of Sicily (Sicily and Malta)​

ROMAN EMPIRE, BYZANTIUM, EUROPEAN UNION, and AUSTRIA-HUNGARY

(using Roman Empire's pic as blanket image)

As you can see, Waking the Tiger did not updated to include the recently added states such as West Banat, Picardy, and Midi Pyrennes. It should be fixed in 1.9

Malta should be cored by Roman Empire too.

I heard that Mosley's Britain supposedly can form European Union too, but the code's broken. It should be fixed in 1.9 too.

MAJAPAHIT

Additional core on East Timor after forming it, perhaps?

NORDIC LEAGUE

After-forming additional cores/claims on Estonia, Ingria, Kola, Karelia.... and Newfoundland.

BALTIC FEDERATION

After-forming core in Wilno and claim in Konigsberg? As historically the Lithuanians occupy eastern part of Konigsberg state too.....

As i said in the main thread, instead of creating Al-Andalus, Mahgreb should've been created.

MAHGREB

Representing the historical Berber states, Mahgreb can be formed by Mauritania, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Sahrawi Republic. Upon clicking the decision, additional cores would be added in Tumbuctou, Southern Sahara, Marsa Matruh, Western Desert, and Canary Islands (claim perhaps); representing the Tamazgha concept of Berber Homeland.

Edit: Expanded by laptop as the original post was created by handphone

 

[MobiusTwo]

I agree with pretty much all of this, and I hope the devs listen to you before the DLC drops. I can't imagine it would take too much time to implement your suggested changes. Here's some more ideas for formable nations:

Personally, I feel that some of the formable nations need to have more restrictions on who can form them. For example, I don't think communists should be able to form Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire, the Rattanokosin Kingdom, or Rome, since all of those nations are intrinsically tied to traditional monarchies and sometimes religions. Likewise, fascist South Africa and Rhodesia (both of which could stand to have big reworks) should not be able to form Mutapa.

I have never liked how the Holy Roman Empire can be restored by the Hohenzollerns. Victoria being in the game is a cool Easter egg, but I don't get why only she can restore the HRE, or why she can do so at all. The Habsburgs should be the ones who should be able to restore the HRE. It should be a hidden decision for Hungary's Austria-Hungary tree once you've taken all the prerequisite territory. Maybe it can be expanded to Austria or Czechoslovakia if they have all that territory since they can also restore Austria-Hungary (they should also get an Otto von Habsburg national spirit for their hard work!).

Lastly, I think having both a formable Scandinavia and a formable Nordic Union is redundant since if you've been able to capture Denmark, you already have Iceland and Greenland.

 

[pheonicia]

I agree with pretty much all of this, and I hope the devs listen to you before the DLC drops. I can't imagine it would take too much time to implement your suggested changes. Here's some more ideas for formable nations:

Personally, I feel that some of the formable nations need to have more restrictions on who can form them. For example, I don't think communists should be able to form Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire, the Rattanokosin Kingdom, or Rome, since all of those nations are intrinsically tied to traditional monarchies and sometimes religions. Likewise, fascist South Africa and Rhodesia (both of which could stand to have big reworks) should not be able to form Mutapa.

I have never liked how the Holy Roman Empire can be restored by the Hohenzollerns. Victoria being in the game is a cool Easter egg, but I don't get why only she can restore the HRE, or why she can do so at all. The Habsburgs should be the ones who should be able to restore the HRE. It should be a hidden decision for Hungary's Austria-Hungary tree once you've taken all the prerequisite territory. Maybe it can be expanded to Austria or Czechoslovakia if they have all that territory since they can also restore Austria-Hungary (they should also get an Otto von Habsburg national spirit for their hard work!).

Lastly, I think having both a formable Scandinavia and a formable Nordic Union is redundant since if you've been able to capture Denmark, you already have Iceland and Greenland.

Doesn't the nordic union require ownership of Finland?

 

[Crispin]

It does pheonicia. As much as it pains me to see additional non ww2 content, this at least feels better than what was suggested in the dev diary.

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

It does pheonicia. As much as it pains me to see additional non ww2 content, this at least feels better than what was suggested in the dev diary.

Thanks!

Lastly, I think having both a formable Scandinavia and a formable Nordic Union is redundant since if you've been able to capture Denmark, you already have Iceland and Greenland.

Hmm, but Lithuania can form both Baltic Federation and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.....

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

Doesn't the nordic union require ownership of Finland?

Yes, and Finland can form it too, although they can't form Scandinavia...

Oohhhh. I forgot something! Thanks for reminding me, i'll add some suggestion about additional cores after forming Nordic Union in the main post.

 

[--Yigito123--]

Hmm, but Lithuania can form both Baltic Federation and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.....

Yeah, but you don't need all of the Baltic Federation's required territory to form Poland-Lithuania, and there are nations that can form one but not the other (Poland for Baltic Fed., Latvia and Estonia for PLC). Meanwhile, there is pretty much no scenario for the player to be in a position to form Nordic council but not be holding the land necessary to form Scandinavia. Nordic Council is practically an extension of Scandinavia and really could've been the equivalent of the Byzantine Triumphs.

 

[Spelaren]

Agree fully! Persia is another one which has a similar problem. Italian dodocanense anyone?

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

The dev diary is unlocked. Already linked this to there.

Feel free to suggest anything about formable nations. Whether it's bugs, new formables that are plausible on 1900s, changes in way of forming already existing formable nations (WtT+MtG), or general update on it for 1.9 and beyond.

 

[j.margenat]

The problem is that the interesting formable tags already exist in the game:
- European powers have the EU, Austria-Hungary, HRE, Roman empire, British Empire, Spanish Empire, Grossvaterland, The scandinavian one.
- In Asia you have the Ottoman Empire, China (in all forms) and India.

Outside of those there is no interest in going for other formable tags as they lack some if not all of these:
- Industry.
- Manpower.
- Repercusion in WW2.

I mean most of these unrealistic tags are played the same:
- You set decolonitation and other fantasy settings so you can play the game i.e GB going fascist or you plan to savescum.
- You pick lets say Hawai, then you go fascist/communist while doing industrial/militar/dockyard focus.
- You start a casus beli against your targets.
- Your enemies suddenly get guaranted by USA/GB/France or whatever country.
- You restart/savescum until you can declare a solo war.
- You repeat until you get all the requisites to form the tag.
- You enter ww2 or pacific war.
- Ww2 is over so you start a new game.

 

[Krey_Lollipop]

As I said in the dev diary, I'd first of all like to see this integrated into the game-rules. If you hate formables, turn them off. If you desire more, set it to free for all (as in communist Persia can form Byzantium and so on), if you want some set it to somewhat realistic. One of the best things I know when it comes to games is playing around with the options/"cheats". Even if a mode is completely stupid (such as DK-mode in GoldenEye), it's still fun to try.

Secondly I'd like to have the option to claim a formable in advance. Like if I play as Greece I want to be able to announce to the world that I have Byzantine ambitions. This would make those who stand in my way hate me, but also give me bonuses like having an easier time creating wargoals or perhaps even a combat buff. Of course this should probably be locked behind the game-rules, but imagine what a fun game were everyone goes crazy saying I want this, I want that. This would also mimic the tiered approach to Byzantium and Al-Andalus.

Lastly (and not from the dev-diary) I would like to let puppets form nations, or atleast let me do something that allows me to make other countries form. (Besides the German focus tree)

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

Just have a showerthought and i think Baltic Federation misses Wilno, and after some searching apparently the eastern part of Konigsberg state was inhabited by the Lithuanians.

Malta too, apparently it remains a colony of the Roman Empire as of 1.8.1. Funny

 

[Iskulya]

Controversial opinion, but I don't think they should really focus on formable nations.

They're silly, ahistorical, and overpowered in most cases. Most of the ones that have been added are easter eggs that most players won't likely ever see or ever succeed in forming. Jokes, basically.

I've gotten the impression that the demands for coring and formables mostly comes from younger players who struggle and want things to become easier. To me, part of the fun in the game is dealing with and overcoming the limitations of a given nation. If you want to play Australia, then of course manpower will be an issue. People usually demand things like formables because they want more factory slots and manpower, to which I would say: just play a bigger country like the United States, Britain, France, Soviet Union, etc.

I think this may be the thinking of the developers on the subject to some extent, see their choice of backing away from the Franco-British Union.

As I said in the dev diary, I'd first of all like to see this integrated into the game-rules. If you hate formables, turn them off. If you desire more, set it to free for all (as in communist Persia can form Byzantium and so on), if you want some set it to somewhat realistic. One of the best things I know when it comes to games is playing around with the options/"cheats". Even if a mode is completely stupid (such as DK-mode in GoldenEye), it's still fun to try.

Secondly I'd like to have the option to claim a formable in advance. Like if I play as Greece I want to be able to announce to the world that I have Byzantine ambitions. This would make those who stand in my way hate me, but also give me bonuses like having an easier time creating wargoals or perhaps even a combat buff. Of course this should probably be locked behind the game-rules, but imagine what a fun game were everyone goes crazy saying I want this, I want that. This would also mimic the tiered approach to Byzantium and Al-Andalus.

Lastly (and not from the dev-diary) I would like to let puppets form nations, or atleast let me do something that allows me to make other countries form. (Besides the German focus tree)

This sounds more like a fertile territory for mods tbh. I think it would be a waste of time for developers to focus on these things. There is already plenty of silly stuff in the game as it is, if you want more, there ARE mods for that, plenty of them.

People are fine with the occasional silly easter egg, but I don't think most people would be ok with alien invasion, fire breathing dragons, wizards, and other similarly silly stuff that is on the same tier as asking for a fleshed out byzantine path if it comes at the expense of more historically rooted and plausible content. A bit of silly stuff is fine, but it should have at least some basis in the period's history(see the silly Anarchist Spain world conquest path which looks pretty fun as an example).

For Greece, it'd be more worthwhile seeing something like the Megali Idea fleshed out for a far-right/fascist government. As far fetched as it was, at least it was contemporary(1920's) as opposed to bringing back a long dead medieval empire that nobody contemplated. The Byzantine formable would still be there as a decision for those that want it.

 

[The Tsar]

best suggestion I've seen here

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

Controversial opinion, but I don't think they should really focus on formable nations.

They're silly, ahistorical, and overpowered in most cases. Most of the ones that have been added are easter eggs that most players won't likely ever see or ever succeed in forming. Jokes, basically.

I've gotten the impression that the demands for coring and formables mostly comes from younger players who struggle and want things to become easier. To me, part of the fun in the game is dealing with and overcoming the limitations of a given nation. If you want to play Australia, then of course manpower will be an issue. People usually demand things like formables because they want more factory slots and manpower, to which I would say: just play a bigger country like the United States, Britain, France, Soviet Union, etc.

I think this may be the thinking of the developers on the subject to some extent, see their choice of backing away from the Franco-British Union.

Can't disagree with you, that's why i make this thread

It's supposed to be a rework on already existing Formable Nations, including correcting bugs, adding core/claims based on historical plausibility, and updating them according to the change of states since 1.6. Al-Andalus is too far-fetched, but Arabia and Mahgreb is not. That's why i suggest @Meka66 to at least rework on how to reform Arabia, and adding Mahgreb instead of Al-Andalus (if he insists to add a formable nation based on Mahgreb area).

About the Franco-British Union, i wish there are decisions to intergrate it further so that the French wouldn't easily break off after the war, especially if Mosley or Edward VIII leads Britain.

]For Greece, it'd be more worthwhile seeing something like the Megali Idea fleshed out for a far-right/fascist government. As far fetched as it was, at least it was contemporary(1920's) as opposed to bringing back a long dead medieval empire that nobody contemplated. The Byzantine formable would still be there as a decision for those that want it.

Fascist/Monarchist Greece for the Italy+Meds DLC shoud include this, probably would come out in 2022 after the Soviet+Poland+Nordic DLC. Byzantium is for the memes, IIRC, and we all know Roman Empire is Mussolini's biggest dream.

best suggestion I've seen here

Thanks, i have researched a lot about this to keep things more plausible within 1900s setting. I mean, this is a game when Axis victory can be achieved.....

 

[Riftwalker]

Controversial opinion, but I don't think they should really focus on formable nations.

well, i think of it more like, well a few things.

1. some formables are fairly realistic, like unifying china
2. some are done via focus and thus have a decent build up.

so i think they'll likely keep focusing on them, whether through the jokes ones or by simulating a rather unique circumstance that can't be easily portrayed in gameplay, like how the PRC actually took over china. like I think people before the PRC took over would think china going communist would be a pretty fantastical idea, in 1936 they're just a small group in the mountains.

so in essence i like the little weird formables in that regard, being things that seem crazy but who knows maybe a very unique set of circumstances that we don't really get to see allowed it to happen.

 

[Krey_Lollipop]

This sounds more like a fertile territory for mods tbh. I think it would be a waste of time for developers to focus on these things. There is already plenty of silly stuff in the game as it is, if you want more, there ARE mods for that, plenty of them.

What part of my suggestion is fertile territory for mods? We already have some pretty ridiculous game rules like banning fortifications and making war justification free for all. Also when it comes to focus Paradox has a lot and I'm almost certain only a small fraction is put on formables and game rules.

In fact I think my idea of a formables game-rule could settle all this by giving Paradox statistics over how people like their formables, and thus how much to develop the feature in the future.

Finally, I am the developer of a very stupid and silly mod on the workshop. It adds almost nothing and is just dumb. Game-rules on the other hand add good replayability, and allow you to repurpose the game for when/if you get bored of the usual WWII.

 

[Orlunu]

Controversial opinion, but I don't think they should really focus on formable nations.

They're silly, ahistorical, and overpowered in most cases. Most of the ones that have been added are easter eggs that most players won't likely ever see or ever succeed in forming. Jokes, basically.

I've gotten the impression that the demands for coring and formables mostly comes from younger players who struggle and want things to become easier. To me, part of the fun in the game is dealing with and overcoming the limitations of a given nation. If you want to play Australia, then of course manpower will be an issue. People usually demand things like formables because they want more factory slots and manpower, to which I would say: just play a bigger country like the United States, Britain, France, Soviet Union, etc.

Depends on the situation, although largely I agree. Mengjiang, as an example, being a Japanese-sheltered fascist Mongolian government, should probably have an ability in place to core the rest of the Mongolian territory if they take it / are given it by Japan. A few other situations like that, the "formables" make sense. Many don't.

 

[SaydaNeen]

The problem I find with formables is it pretty much requires you to obliterate an entire continent... Al-Andalus will require you to attack Axis and Allies. By the time you are strong enough as Spain, US will be in Allies, and when you go to war there is no "white peace" therefore obliteration and complete conquer is your only option which absolutely blows up the borders of Al-Andalus, all it is a historic name, not the historic borders which is the goal.... This goes for any land seizure or border acquisition, it's frustrating that in such a diplomatic period there is no diplomacy.... They really need to prioritize the peace time game mechanics and peace negotiations... I don't play a single game without the mod "player-led peace conference"

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

The problem I find with formables is it pretty much requires you to obliterate an entire continent... Al-Andalus will require you to attack Axis and Allies. By the time you are strong enough as Spain, US will be in Allies, and when you go to war there is no "white peace" therefore obliteration and complete conquer is your only option which absolutely blows up the borders of Al-Andalus, all it is a historic name, not the historic borders which is the goal.... This goes for any land seizure or border acquisition, it's frustrating that in such a diplomatic period there is no diplomacy.... They really need to prioritize the peace time game mechanics and peace negotiations... I don't play a single game without the mod "player-led peace conference"

Yeah, formables based on historical pan-nationalism is a thing, but as i have said, ignoring plausibility is a no-no.

Whelp, one more change i guess on the rework.

When the Ottoman Empire are restored, the capital should've been moved to Istanbul. Perhaps with the name of city and state changed into Konstantiniyye