Suggestions for Boiotia, Thebes and Boiotian

Suggestions for Boiotia, Thebes and Boiotian

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Gurkhal

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Long awaited, at least fo me, comes my suggestion thread for the region of Boiotia including the states of Boiotia and Thebes, but also for Boiotian culture.

Boiotian bloodlines

The first two suggested Bloodlines probably requires no explination as they are fairly well known. The third is less well known and could use some context for it, which is provided below but relates to the non-Greek rulers of Orchomenos in Boiotia which was seen as the traditional rival of the Greek Thebes in Greek mythology. Its a feud that involved an episode with a young Herakles leading the Thebans to victory over the Minyans of Orchomenos.

Blood of the Agenorides - The bloodline of such famous Theban characters like Kadmos, founder of Thebes, and Semele, the mortal mother of Dionysos. And maybe some form of bonus to relations with "Eastern" cultures.


Probably a bonus to Martial and perhaps Oratory for while they rule Thebes, they don't always show the cleverness that a high Finess would warrent.

Blood of the Spartoi - The bloodline of the traditional Theban nobility. Potentially one could even divide them into a further five bloodlines, one for each of the Spartoi who survived their initial battle: Echion, Udaeus, Chthonios, Hyperenor and Pelorus.


Blood of Andreus of Orchomenos - The supposedly first settler at Orchomenos who seems to have founded the royal house of Orchomenos and is mentioned in Pausanias in the chapter on Boiotia in parts 34:5.

Probably a bonus to Oratory for one king's supposed introduction of the cult of the Graces.



EDITED: I actually managed to find some links related to Andreus and his son, Eteokles of Orchomenos. :)
 
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A small post for deities. I hope to return with a more fleshed out list of suggestions and info after I've gained hold of the works "Cults of Boiotia", "Cults of the Greek States", "Greek Nymphs: Myth, Cult, Lore", "Ancient Greek Heroines", "Athena Itonia" and others. But since they are either out-of-print, so I must make distance loans, or rather expensive, a shorter and temporary list will have to make due for now.

My primary sources for this preliminary list has been Wikipedia and "Ancient Greek Cults: A Guide" by Jennifer Larson. Where possible I have added a Wikipedia link in order to provide an accessable source for my suggestions. Other times I refer to Larson and sometimes use both.

Boiotian Cults

***

Posidon seems to have been considered an ancestor god of the Boiotians, for both the Minyans and the immigrating Boiotioi. One can also note that similar to Thessaly Poseidon was primarily a god of horses in the area. A Poseidon Hippios, if you like.

"The present Boiotio" - wrote Thuycdides - "in the sixtieth year after the capture of Ilion, were evicted from Arne by the Thessalians, and settled in what is now called Boiotia, but was formerly named the Kadmeian land: there was, besides, a group of them who were in this land earlier, some of whom had gone to war against Ilion." ("Boiotia in Antiquity: Selected Papers" by Albert Schachter)

Hermes was the patron of the city of Tanagra and there seems to have been a Boiotian version of Hermes birth which places it in Boiotia and possibly at Tanagra itself.

In myth Herakles was born in Thebes and in the Boiotian tradition of the god he seems to have been depicted primarily as a youthful god.

***

Orion (Seems to have been worshipped as a hero by the Boiotians and with a connection to Tanagra)


Kabeiri (A cult found across the Aegean but also strong in Thebes, and along with the Elusinian Mysteries they could be added to have the mechanic for Mystery Cults if the devs would incorporate such a thing in the future)


The Muses (According to what I've read the Muses were popularized by Hesiod and in myth a Boiotian king, Eteokles of Orchomenos, was the first to worship them and given that this is a thread for Boiotia I naturally suggest they would have a Holy Site in the province in which Mount Helikon is located.)


Alkmene (The mother of Herakles and Larson mentions that there was a sanctury to her in Thebes, the mythological place of Herakles' birth)

Amphiaraos (Among the Argives attacking Thebes in "Seven against Thebes" but it seems that he was turned into protective deity by the Boiotians. This seems to have been a bit of a trend in which a hostile hero is appeased with offerings to make him a friend of the land where he is buried.)

Trophonios (Another hero/spirit/god, this one of an oracular nature, who had his very own oracle)


Apollo Ptoios (And oracle aspect of Apollo which was connected with the mountains of Ptoion)


Apollo Ismenios (The form of Apollo at Thebes great temple to Apollo, the Ismenion - named after the river "the Ismenios" - and there were, according to Larson, also oracles of Apollo connected with the temple.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo#Greco-Roman_epithets (Found at the bottom of the list)

Artemis Eukleia (Larson mentions that Plutarch wrote there was an altar and image to Artemis Eukleia in every market place in Boiotia were couple about to marry made offerings)

Athena Alalkomeneis (An epithet mentioned by Homer, found across Boiotia and centered on the town of Alalkomenai although this sanctury was supposedly looted, as mentioned by Larson that Pausanias wrote, by Sulla. It was an epithet with the meaning of "She who protects" and focused on protecting cities from attackers.)

Athena Itonia (An epithet of Athena coming from Thessaly and with several different functions in both war and poetry, but the fact that her sanctury was the meeting place for the Boiotian Confederacy speaks some of her importance.)


Semele (Dionysos' mother and given cult honors at Thebes in her sanctuary.

Hermes Kriophoros (Supposedly an epithet to ward away evil)


Hermes Promachos (Hermes as a war god of Tanagra, Larson writes that he was connected with leading the youths of Tanagra to battle)

 
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More flavour is always good!

Potentially one could even divide them into a further five bloodlines
what would be the difference between these 5 bloodlines?



We have previously made a few proposals (here and here) for this area, here are the ones that are still unimplemented:


I. Make Thebes able form Boeotia:
Thebes can’t form Boeotia because they are monarchies and the decision requires being a republic.

We've proposed a simple solution:
  • Change requirements of Form Boeotia: remove the being a republic requirement, so Thebes becomes able to do it.
A more complicated solution mould be adding event chain or mission that would:
  • Allow Thebes to integrate AI-controlled Boeotia and form Boeotia. (flavoured as regaining local Hegemony)
  • alternatively, make Boeotia a Feudatory of Thebes.


II Boeotia and the Antigonids

(We've posted it before the Antigonid Kigdom's name was fixed, but unfortunately this was't changed)
Problem: Currenty, Aetolia and Boeotia are guaranteed by Phrygia. We think this is an unfixed leftover from the earlier versions that didn’t allow alliances between countries of different ranks. This is notable because historically, this was not a defensive alliance but an offensive one: Demetrios Poliorcetes asked the Aetolian and Boeotians to assist his invasion of Macedon (which triggered the IV war of the Diadochi) and they agreed.
Proposed solution: Either change Phrygia’s guarantees to alliances or give Aetolia and Boeotia initial choices like Syracuse and the Seleukids:

- accept the Antigonids’ proposed alliance (ally with Phrygia, get claims on Macedon’s Aetolia or Boeotia province respectively, Macedon loses 100 opinion of them)

OR:

- reject the alliance (either no effect OR Phrygia gets claims on them and loses opinion, while Macedon gets improved opinion)

If they agree, it would help create the necessary dynamic for a war between the Diadochi, and if they don’t, or dissolve the alliance later, it will create alternative paths for Macedon or Epirus to expand.


III. Cultures and formables in western Boeotia province

Problem:
Problem I: most minors between Aetolia and Boeotia have Boeotian culture. This means they would try to expand into Boeotia and form Boeotian league, but if Aetolia takes this area, they get a new culture.

Historically, Northwest Doric tribes, Locrians and Phoceans inhabited these areas. They:

  • spoke a dialect related to Aetolian
  • eventually joined the Aetolian league but were never part of Boeotia
  • Amphissa and Opus (and Nikaia Locri) were both Locrian, they should have the same culture.
solution:
  • Change the primary culture of Delphi, Elatea and Opus from Boeotian to Aetolian.
  • Change all POPs in these three city-states AND Nikaia Lokri from Boeotian to Aetolian.
  • Change a few Aetolian POPs in Lamia, Thaumakoi and Hypata to Thessalian.
  • Add two new T1 formables:
  • Locris: available to Amphissa, Opus and Locri. Requires owning Amphissa, Opus and Nikaia Locri.
  • Phocis: available to Elatea and Delphi. Requirements: owning both towns AND Heraclea Trachinia.


IV. Characters
Demetrios Phalerid stays in Thebes for the rest of his life, while in reality he went to Egypt in 297 BC. This contrasts characters who are moved from country to country by events like Pyrrhos, Mithridates and Ariarathes.

Proposed solution: There should be an event that triggers after Kassandros’ death if Demetrios is still in Thebes. He should move to Egypt. Egypt may get a choice:

- Keep him in their service (the historical option)

- Help him return to Athens (alternate history, but similar to how Pyrrhos or Ariarathes return to power). In this case, Egypt would spend some gold and manpower, and Demetrios Phalerid would go to Athens, become the Archon and turn it into an oligarchic republic that is either a feudatory of Egypt or independent and allied to them. If Phrygia was still the overlord of Athens, they should get an event allowing them to declare war on Egypt for this.
 
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More flavour is always good!

I totally agree. :)


what would be the difference between these 5 bloodlines?

Not entirely sure to be honest. It was more of a throw-away suggestions I laid out rather than something which I had put much thought into. And personally a single bloodline would probably work the best, but I felt like I should mention another possibility at least.

We have previously made a few proposals (here and here) for this area, here are the ones that are still unimplemented:

Excellent stuff as always, Ketchup & friends. :)

I. Make Thebes able form Boeotia:

We've proposed a simple solution:

A more complicated solution mould be adding event chain or mission that would:
  • Allow Thebes to integrate AI-controlled Boeotia and form Boeotia. (flavoured as regaining local Hegemony)
  • alternatively, make Boeotia a Feudatory of Thebes

All good ideas and I think all of them could work well. Its a bit maddening that Boiotia and Thebes only seem to be able to unite through war when previous in history it was exactly the opposite in that Thebes couldn't get Boiotia under themselves in the way that Athens unified Attica that lead to the the Boiotian League in the first place.

Still some way to re-establish the Boiotian League with Thebes at the head would be good. Perhaps a kind of mission where if Thebes, the city, is built up sufficiently then its attraction makes the rest of Boiotia comes into its orbit through soft power?

II Boeotia and the Antigonids

(We've posted it before the Antigonid Kigdom's name was fixed, but unfortunately this was't changed)

III. Cultures and formables in western Boeotia province

Problem:

solution:

While I agree about the formables I'm not really sold on this solution to the culture question. As far as I can see both Boiotian and Aetolian feels wrong as Phokis is its own thing and from what little I saw on Wikipedia seems to have spoken a Doric dialect and thus equating them with Aetolians feels as wrong as them being Boiotians since these two groups would be be speaking an Aeolic dialect of Greek.

My favored solution would be a new Hellenistic culture of either Dorians, representing the Dorian speakers in Central Greece, or a Phokian culture, but I understand if the devs don't want to overcrowd Greece with even more cultures.

In regards to having a few more Thessalian culture POPs that would work for me.

IV. Characters

This sounds good to me. :)
 
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This is a special kind of post in that I focus on a single territory and then write a little about it and from that offer suggestions to what could be added to game in regards to it. And first one out is, Anthedon.

Anthedon

The town


The town could previously have been a part of Thebes and been used as a port by the Thebans and possibly the site of their naval constructions in the 360s BC. But at least since 338 BC it was an independent polis which was part of the Third Boiotian Federation.

Its reported that the soil was poor and so fishing and sea products were the main economy. The town had a port and to the north of this on a fortified hill some 30m high was the akropolis. The town had an agora with two stoas on the sides and, from archeological excavations it seems like at least three temples, to the Kaibeiroi, Demeter and Persephone and Dionysos, have been found. Pausanias claims that there was a tomb to Iphimedeia and her two giant sons, the Aloadae.

Suggestion: Change the territory's production from Horses to Fish, in the event that a city is founded there should be a port city and there should be at least a rural shrine (as I've suggested before in another thread for a new building type for territories) to it.

Local mythology

In regards to the city's mythology this is what I've found out. Remember its a mess, essentially, but reflects a living polytheist tradition and so we shouldn't expect things to line up neatly when comparing the notes.

The city's patron were apparently Zeus Karaios and Anthas. Anthas' nature might have several traditions as both the father of the sea god Glaukos or as a son of Poseidon but in some way connected with the founding hero of the town, either through descent or by being that hero himself. The general gist however seems to be a founding hero who was connected in some form of kinship with the powers of the sea, which would make sense for port town. Its also mentioned that fishermen of the city considers the sea god Glaukos to communicate with them and so seems to have been locally important for that profession.

I didn't get a really solid answer to what Zeus Karaios was about but it seems he was a local epithet for a focus on the Boiotian ethnos, but I don't have very solid foundation for this as my usual references didn't cover this.

Suggestion: Add "Zeus Karaios" to the deities of the Boiotia state with the following bonuses; Passive: Citizen Happiness (Or Boiotian culture if such a bonus is possible), Omen: Character Loyalty. Adding a founding hero for a minor town probably don't make much sense nor do adding another sea deity. But if the devs would think otherwise, you now have a little to go on.

Famous people

As for famous people coming from the city I've found but a single one, Nikon of Anthedon, who in 300 BC was the Olympic victor in the pankration.

Suggestion: Add Nikon of Anthedon to the characters of the state of Boiotia at the game's start as a good athlete and probably at least an ok commander.

The souces I've used are

Wikipedia






Theoi.com


Google Search


Books used

An Inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis - Editors: Mogens Herman Hansen and Thomas Heine Nielsen (I highly recommend the devs to get hold of this volume, it is superb :D, if rather expensive)

Guide to Greece: Central Greece - Pausanias

EDITED: Polished the English a little.
 
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While I agree about the formables I'm not really sold on this solution to the culture question. As far as I can see both Boiotian and Aetolian feels wrong as Phokis is its own thing and from what little I saw on Wikipedia seems to have spoken a Doric dialect and thus equating them with Aetolians feels as wrong as them being Boiotians since these two groups would be be speaking an Aeolic dialect of Greek.

My favored solution would be a new Hellenistic culture of either Dorians, representing the Dorian speakers in Central Greece, or a Phokian culture, but I understand if the devs don't want to overcrowd Greece with even more cultures.
This could work too, but would require introducing a new culture. And the Aetolians spoke Northwest doric as well.
We've originally suggested an own culture for Elis while @Selzro suggested making them aetolians and the devs implemented that option.
But if your proposal is implemented, some POPs in Naupaktos should have that culture as well.

Or perhaps rename the Aetolian culture Northwest Doric?
 

Gurkhal

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This could work too, but would require introducing a new culture. And the Aetolians spoke Northwest doric as well.
We've originally suggested an own culture for Elis while @Selzro suggested making them aetolians and the devs implemented that option.
But if your proposal is implemented, some POPs in Naupaktos should have that culture as well.

Or perhaps rename the Aetolian culture Northwest Doric?

I think its fine as it is then. "Northwest Doric" sounds pretty weird for a culture name if you ask me.