Suggestion - Tie Assimilation to Education

[Bosko]

I think assimilation of foreign pops should in part be tied to the funding of education. Public education in the 19th and 20th century is what helped large groups of immigrants eventually 'assimilate' through their children in countries like Argentina, Brazil, the USA, etc., so there should be a variable in a country's pop assimilation rate that is proportional to the level of education funding.

 

[Lloyien]

I think assimilation of foreign pops should in part be tied to the funding of education. Public education in the 19th and 20th century is what helped large groups of immigrants eventually 'assimilate' through their children in countries like Argentina, Brazil, the USA, etc., so there should be a variable in a country's pop assimilation rate that is proportional to the level of education funding.

I like this idea. It isn't too unreasonable.

Higher education funding would probably raise immigrant consciousness, too.

 

[Lord_Andrew]

But it only worked this way in the new world, (america, australia and south africa). In the old world education made nationalizm.

 

[Weijun]

But it only worked this way in the new world, (america, australia and south africa). In the old world education made nationalizm.

Not mutually exclusive. For the New World, especially, the U.S., nationalism was a matter of creed, not blood and soil. This could be tied to the political system. Recall how in Victoria I, there was residency, limited citizenship, and full citizenship.

 

[Dark Knight]

But it only worked this way in the new world, (america, australia and south africa). In the old world education made nationalizm.

Disputes over the languages allowed in education resulted in friction between nationalities, but the education itself could lead to assimilation. For example, if Hungary increases its funding for its system of public education, but also forbids instruction in languages other than Magyar, this should lead to an increasing number of students assimilated into Magyar culture through their education but also increased irritation from members of nationalities that want instruction in their own languages.

 

[unmerged(16488)]

But it only worked this way in the new world, (america, australia and south africa). In the old world education made nationalizm.

Wrong. Unless France is part of the new world..... education is what made poles, ukrainian jews & italians as french as parisians. doesn't work anymore(which partially relates to a relative lowering of education quality).

I guess it depends on how education is made. In France, everyone, french-born, outside-France-born whites, blacks.....were taught "our ancestors the Gauls". While obviously false, this statement(and everything revolving around) made a lot for assimilation.

I like a lot the OP's idea, but it probably has to be refined to be gameplay-interesting.

Disputes over the languages allowed in education resulted in friction between nationalities, but the education itself could lead to assimilation. For example, if Hungary increases its funding for its system of public education, but also forbids instruction in languages other than Magyar, this should lead to an increasing number of students assimilated into Magyar culture through their education but also increased irritation from members of nationalities that want instruction in their own languages.

That's what happened in France. Not only one single origin was taught, but also one single language. Up to the 30s, local dialects have been fought strongly at school, and anyone speaking breton or Corsican to a friend, even in pause, would be harshly punished(wham!). DK describes what happened as a result : those dialects are today nearly dead, while strong in neighbouring countries(esp. Spain).

 

[Darkrenown]

Disputes over the languages allowed in education resulted in friction between nationalities, but the education itself could lead to assimilation. For example, if Hungary increases its funding for its system of public education, but also forbids instruction in languages other than Magyar, this should lead to an increasing number of students assimilated into Magyar culture through their education but also increased irritation from members of nationalities that want instruction in their own languages.

It could perhaps be tied to your minority policy. E.g if you have full citizenship then your minority pops would increase in literacy at the same rate as your main culture pops with no gain in nationalism and be more likely to assimilate, but for each step down the policy ladder they would gain less literacy and more nationalism.

 

[Brownbeard]

Assimilation should be tied to ethnicity of clergy. State culture clergy assimilates, minority clergy blocks assimilation. Pretty much the way it worked. Minority clergy should be generally present in Europe and not present in Americas and the colonies.

 

[Nikolai II]

Disputes over the languages allowed in education resulted in friction between nationalities, but the education itself could lead to assimilation. For example, if Hungary increases its funding for its system of public education, but also forbids instruction in languages other than Magyar, this should lead to an increasing number of students assimilated into Magyar culture through their education but also increased irritation from members of nationalities that want instruction in their own languages.

This statement would get my full agreement.

And the old worlds failure to assimilate everyone was more due to low spending on education, and minorities that were more akin to majorities in size.
(It should take a heckuvalot of time to whittle down a 40-50% ethnic population merely by education, given that you only get the young ones that go to school and then do not go straight back to their own culture again once school is over.)

 

[JRHINDO]

^They would be multicultural kids then.
Take native indians, they lost only part of their culture but could be considered assimilated into usa.

 

[von_Manstein11]

I think Assimilation has to be tied into the offspring of immigrant's


I would argue that more then half of immigrant's never actually assimilate (I can see this in my own family) but its infact the 2nd and 3rd generation of the family that are assimilated into the adopted culture. I like this idea because its realistic. It would mean that no matter how open to immigrant's your nation is, you will always have to deal with true "Minorities" as you will always have a non native population in your coutry. Also it will make it a realistic strategy to try and possibly curb immigration if you start allowing a to multiethnic state at one time (think extremes of like 10% every major european culture all together, not the 50% hungarian 50% Austrian)

 

[Earl Uhtred]

That's what happened in France. Not only one single origin was taught, but also one single language. Up to the 30s, local dialects have been fought strongly at school, and anyone speaking breton or Corsican to a friend, even in pause, would be harshly punished(wham!). DK describes what happened as a result : those dialects are today nearly dead, while strong in neighbouring countries(esp. Spain).

Let's us not overestimate the effects of official policy. The promotion of Celtic languages of the British Isles (or for that matter the habilitation of English provincial dialects) has had no discernible effect on their retreat.

 

[likk9922]

This is almost definitely the most accurate way to simulate assimilation.

Public education was originally advocated in the United States as a reaction to increasing immigration. And it worked, too- within a generation, in almost all respects immigrants were inarguably American. While most retained their religion (Jews and Catholics) and some cultural discrepancies (foods, phrases), they became indoctrinated with Americanism. You can really see this visiting a Little Italy or Chinatown- while architecture, food and people will reflect that of Italy or China, American overtones will abound (and did in the past), and loyalties were to the United States rather than the immigrants' native nations.

This DID matter in the Old World, too. More than a million Frenchmen are of Polish descent. Ashkenazic Jews from Eastern Europe migrated in large numbers to France, England, and the Netherlands. There are not large population of Yiddish or Polish speakers in these nations- loyalties were changed, mostly through public education.

Of course this didn't work as well with resident minorities. Those who immigrated were in a much different position- thrust into a new society, rather than having resisted it for generations. That's why something I'd love to see is the "Resident Minority"- maybe tagging each pop which is a minority that should stay, such as the blacks in the the US South or the Germans in France, or designating the entire culture so it will not assimilate (as it often did, inaccurately and annoyingly, in Vic 1).

 

[unmerged(63310)]

That's why something I'd love to see is the "Resident Minority"- maybe tagging each pop which is a minority that should stay, such as the blacks in the the US South or the Germans in France, or designating the entire culture so it will not assimilate (as it often did, inaccurately and annoyingly, in Vic 1).

This would be great, even more for modding but of huge benefit for the game as well.

 

[Orinsul]

immigrants might assimilate, but minorities on their home soil ought never assimilate no matter what education is in place. People who have immigrated have a mindset of wanted to be among the new community, they wont hold on to their traditions and identity as strong as if they had their own hills and the ground and cities of their ancestors to hold strong the identity. Dalmations moving to america might become america, Dalmations staying where they are will not become austrian, should all the schools in the world compel them it should not be so.
Whether its the old world or the new, people in their home land shouldnt assimilate, whereas those who turn their back on their heritage and abandon their homeland to better their own conditions are very likely too. not entirely, but enough to count in the game.

 

[unmerged(56465)]

It could perhaps be tied to your minority policy. E.g if you have full citizenship then your minority pops would increase in literacy at the same rate as your main culture pops with no gain in nationalism and be more likely to assimilate, but for each step down the policy ladder they would gain less literacy and more nationalism.

I don't think the 'nice' minority policies need to be any more overpowered than they already are. If anything, limited citizenship should have the best assimilation rate.

 

[JRHINDO]

Those who assimilate through education keep their cultural way of thinking from their ancestors but is on the same level as everyone by the education of given by the government.
A culture tag, for info only would represent this.

 

[Dark Knight]

Of course this didn't work as well with resident minorities. Those who immigrated were in a much different position- thrust into a new society, rather than having resisted it for generations. That's why something I'd love to see is the "Resident Minority"- maybe tagging each pop which is a minority that should stay, such as the blacks in the the US South or the Germans in France, or designating the entire culture so it will not assimilate (as it often did, inaccurately and annoyingly, in Vic 1).

Yes, the effect of education and minority policy on assimilation should be different depending on whether the POP is native or immigrant. Immigrants rarely had an expectation of preserving their own culture and language, and assimilation of immigrants not only occurred in the Victoria period but fairly rapidly and was hastened by education. This was true not only of immigrants in the New World but also of Irish in Britain, Poles and Italians in France, Russian Jews in Austria-Hungary, etc. There wasn't any significant 'militancy' created in immigrant groups from being instructed in the language of their new country. For immigrants, more education should lead to more assimilation, and a more lenient minority policy should lead to more assimilation.

It could perhaps be tied to your minority policy. E.g if you have full citizenship then your minority pops would increase in literacy at the same rate as your main culture pops with no gain in nationalism and be more likely to assimilate, but for each step down the policy ladder they would gain less literacy and more nationalism.

That makes sense for immigrant POPs, but for native minority POPs I think that a policy of full citizenship should result in less assimilation from education than a harsher minority policy. A state with a policy of full citizenship could be interpreted to be lenient toward demands by native groups for instruction in their own language, in which case education would not lead as much to assimilation as when, under a harsher policy, the minorities are forced to use the language of the state culture and given the same historical and literary instruction as members of the state culture. Of course, a harsher minority policy would also result in higher militancy.

immigrants might assimilate, but minorities on their home soil ought never assimilate no matter what education is in place. People who have immigrated have a mindset of wanted to be among the new community, they wont hold on to their traditions and identity as strong as if they had their own hills and the ground and cities of their ancestors to hold strong the identity. Dalmations moving to america might become america, Dalmations staying where they are will not become austrian, should all the schools in the world compel them it should not be so.
Whether its the old world or the new, people in their home land shouldnt assimilate, whereas those who turn their back on their heritage and abandon their homeland to better their own conditions are very likely too. not entirely, but enough to count in the game.

Historically there were attempts during the Victoria period of Magyarization, Gallicization, Germanification, Russification, etc. of non-immigrant groups. These policies had at least some degree of success (in the case of France, a high degree of success in creating a uniform language and culture), although generally at the cost of angering a large portion of the populations subjected to these efforts.

 

[Nikolai II]

[Lots of Good points, again.]

Indeed. If this can be somehow modeled, it would be a great minor(ity) issue.

 

[Darkrenown]

I don't think the 'nice' minority policies need to be any more overpowered than they already are. If anything, limited citizenship should have the best assimilation rate.

That makes sense for immigrant POPs, but for native minority POPs I think that a policy of full citizenship should result in less assimilation from education than a harsher minority policy. A state with a policy of full citizenship could be interpreted to be lenient toward demands by native groups for instruction in their own language, in which case education would not lead as much to assimilation as when, under a harsher policy, the minorities are forced to use the language of the state culture and given the same historical and literary instruction as members of the state culture. Of course, a harsher minority policy would also result in higher militancy.

Good point(s).