[suggestion] the trans sahran trade both maghreb and west african province

[dark-mysterio]

hello everyone


1.

in crusader kings 2 there is lack of of representation of the trans-Saharan trade/relation between all of north africa

for an example the almoravids used to have an empire wish contained area in Moroccan/Mauritanian desert and wich traded with people from north african sahran city state/entity

and ad the reverse empire such as mali did the same

source:wikipedia image source: http://data.abuledu.org/wp/?LOM=15725 source: https://www.ancient.eu/image/10129/map-of-the-mali-empire-c-1337-ce/

in some mods the Saharan province extend far more than the usual ck2 province corridor of morocco/mauritiania region or Libya/tchad region

a base game base game image + one with hip mod (*from a youtube video) comparison:

so why only stopping to the ck2 Moroccan/Mauritanian and Libyan corridor province ? will there is far more to ad to as to represent group like the various city missing city state/entity/group of people in Algerian,Tunisian,Libyan desert and missing part of Sahel: like for example Saharan/Sahelian Berbers (like the Sanhaja who lead the almoravids movements or whoever controlled the deep Sahara before the Tuareg) Arabian/Bedouins (Hilalians Maqil migration after the defeat by the Almohads Berbers during the period could represent some thing like that) and Sahelian/Saharan black group and whatsoever the empire of Ghana,Mali.... owned in the sahelian/saharan (im not an expert on that beside that the region used to have great empire in the region like Ghana,Mali... so live if somebody know what black group where prominent in the region of the Sahara/Sahel i would like to know ?)

2. the Maghreb region should be culturally divided with an amazigh/berbers cultural group (representing the local natives non-arabized berbers) and an maghrebi one (or at least represent an "Maghrebi" culture in some area as to represent the hilalians/maqil migrating invasion and the aftermath melting pot with the nativs berbers because they where unable to keep 100% of there culture if you consider than Moroccan,Algerian... culture did not exist back then)

if you don't understand what i mean there is two image from the mod Meiou and Taxes from europa universalis 4

the Maghrebi cultural group: the Berbers cultural group

an remanent of the old Berbers-Carthagians-Romans melting plot or "Roman-African" can also be added for early medieval start date (867 ? or future added early start date like an return of the 769 on ?) in some area with some kind of local christanity ? (i don't know for sure if the romanzied population where all Nicene Christian ? so meybe somebody who know more will responses tho this thank you please)

(image from ck2 with when the world stopped making sense mod image might be outdated since i take that screenshot some year ago sorry)

3.
finally some kind of soufi with soufi tariqa ? ( and maybe marabouti islam as heresy of soufi islam ? but no very sure so if somebody have more knowledge i would to know thank you please) should represent some part of all the Maghreb + part of west Africa (and maybe rest of Africa ?)

Sufism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tariqa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

North African Sufism in World Context

A symposium on Sufi movements from North Africa and their influence in a global context.

international.ucla.edu

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264252420_Sufism_in_West_Africa

Marabout - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

thank you for everyone who read this end sorry for my english

* link of the youtube video: : /watch?v=fprSGFQgHuw&t=80s (don't want the video to appear on the post so cut the link sorry)

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

I'm all for more trade routes (including inside Europe), so yes

 

[dark-mysterio]

bump

 

[elvain]

1. in crusader kings 2 there is lack of of representation of the trans-Saharan tread/relation between all of north africa
(...)
in some mods the Saharan province extend far more than the usual ck2 province corridor of morocco/mauritiania region or Libya/tchad region

base game: with hip mod (*from a youtube video)
View attachment 573946 View attachment 573947

Fun fact is that both those maps were from a large part designed by the same person. One (the HIP/SWMH) is my own work (later edited, mainly in order to merge some provinces) and the other was from a large part based on resources and my own maps I passed to the devs. Another fun fact, the Base game map is newer and based on more and better knowledge than the other. That's just to add some context.

To be honest, considering the design, scope, limitations and purpouse of the base game, the map to the left (the base game) is better suited than the other, which was drawn for different design, scope and goals, only to find out that the game doesn't really do the area the justice (that's why I later decided to prefer only inclusion of the corridors which served as "bridges of political power" connecting both sides of the Sahara in one empire.
That, I believe, could answer your first question:

so why only stopping to the ck2 Moroccan/Mauritanian and Libyan corridor province ?

But let's leave CK2 and its context behind... as we can see from the latest dev diary, the new CK3 map will have different Maghreb and probably also the Sahara... And if we can judge from this screenshor, I wouldn't mind to say a much better one!

there is far more to ad to as to represent group like the various city missing city state/entity/group of people in Algerian,Tunisian,Libyan desert and missing part of Sahel: like for example Saharan/Sahelian Berbers (like the Sanhaja who lead the almoravids movements or whoever controlled the deep Sahara before the Tuareg) Arabian/Bedouins (Hilalians Maqil migration after the defeat by the Almohads Berbers during the period could represent some thing like that) and Sahelian/Saharan black group and whatsoever the empire of Ghana,Mali.... owned in the sahelian/saharan (im not an expert on that beside that the region used to have great empire in the region like Ghana,Mali... so live if somebody know what black group where prominent in the region of the Sahara/Sahel i would like to know ?)

Let's take them one by one.
The first - The Sanhaja tribal confederations, which led to creation of the Almoravids and the core of their original power - the Adrar region in south-western corner of the Sahara is already present in CK2 map.
- the "Whoever controlled the deep Sahara before the Tuareg" - that was basically those Sanhaja tribes we just talked about. In the 11th century (together with the conquests led by the main confederation of the Lamtuna), all the tribes migrated, most probably due to increased aridization of the Sahara. Some of them towards the south-west (the Guddala), others towards the east (the Massufa). In the 14th century, Maghrebi geographer Ibn Battuta describes the Massufa as the masters of territories where the Tuaregs have later emerged, which (the emergence of Touaregs) must have happened after the times of Ibn Khaldun (late 14th/early 15th century), since Ibn Khaldun writes about pretty much every single Berber tribe, yet he doesn't mention a word about the Tuaregs. So these people would be the Massufa. In the areas around Tadmekka, there are mentioned tribes such as Tanmak, Saghmara, Tutak and Asabat, whom I tried to caption on this my older map:

There were also tribes in the area of Air, around Agadés, who now consider themselves as Touaregs too.
Although none of these played any important role in politics outside the Sahara itself, it would be indeed very interesting to see them present in CK3.
- The Arab Hilalian, Maqili and Sulaymi confederations were already present on the CK2 map, although not represented well.
- as for the Sahel. The devs have confirmed that the map will cover all of Northern Africa all the way to the coast of Nigeria, so pretty much everything shown on the map above.
We can only hope that since they decided to do the move and add areas even beyond the Sahel, the region will get some propper representation, including the Sahel itself. As the map above suggests, there is plenty of space and potential for nicely done Sahel. If given propper love, every single province of CK2 could be a duchy with several provinces, many of them nicely rich and with some nice details (If you want, I can add more details about how it could look some time later)

That said, if Sub Saharan Africa will get some more love (which - as we probably agree - it desperately needs), it would be then possible also to give some more love to the Sahara... and that would be awesome too!

On the other hand, let's keep it real. There were no city states in the Sahara (if we don't count the centers like Awdaghust or Sijilmasa, which can fall under this category and were already in CK2 and hance we can seriously doubt they will be missing in CK3). There were numerous tribes living there, some of them meddling with politics of adjacent areas. Almost all this meddling, however, was around or relatively close to the 2-3 corridors already present in CK2.
The Zaghawa people and their relative tribes (the Tubu AKA Toubou etc.) who lived between Fezzan and Kanem (although not just in the trade corridor), conquering the southern terminus of the trade route and eventually creating the kingdom of Kanem...

Let's end here for now... I will comment on the other parts later.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

If it wasn't locked, I would have put this on the suggestions thread. I'll just watch and be ready to port this thread if there shows up a Suggestions for CKIII sub-forum.

In the 14th century, Maghrebi geographer Ibn Battuta describes the Massufa as the masters of territories where the Tuaregs have later emerged, which must have happened after the times of Ibn Khaldun (late 14th/early 15th century), since Ibn Khaldun writes about pretty much every single Berber tribe, yet he doesn't mention a word about the Tuaregs.

Umm, elvain, how does someone write about something in the 14th century that another did not mention in the early 15th?

 

[elvain]

Umm, elvain, how does someone write about something in the 14th century that another did not mention in the early 15th?

Ibn Battuta in the mid 14th century wrote about the Massufa as masters of territories which later became Touareg.
The thing which must have happened after the times of Ibn Khaldun (early 15th century) was the emergence/ethnogenesis of Touaregs.

We discussed this matter with @dark-mysterio few times already and from his post it was clear that he knows this already, so I assumed it to be a known fact (at least for him to whom I was replying), and hence I didn't care much to be perfectly clear and explanatory.

Spoiler: further explanation

We know that Touaregs are mentioned in centuries after Ibn Khaldun as Berber people living in central parts of the Sahara. We know that Touaregs claim descent from ancient Berbers, we know that they emerged in history in areas previously inhabited by a number of tribes and we know that one of the most powerfull of those tribes were the Massufa who migrated to those territories since late 11th century and that they (the Massufa) were masters of large section of later Touareg territories certainly in the 14th century. We also know that the Touaregs share pretty much all cultural specifics prevalent in the Massufa confederation (clothing, customs, role of women in society etc.) and that the Massufa were lost from history in the same time window and the same territory, in which the Touaregs emerged.
We also know that the biggest historian of the Berbers, Ibn Khaldun, mentioned pretty much all medieval Berber tribes (many of the tribes we know only thanks to Ibn Khaldun), yet he mentions not a single word about Touaregs. Hence we can assume that the potential ethnogenesis of Touaregs from the Massufa and other people in the central Sahara happened after the times of Ibn Khaldun.

It's not an accademic nor official theory or hypothesis, but it's in accord with everything I have read about Berbers.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

snip

Ah, thank you for the explanation. I misunderstood your statement as "Ibn Battuta wrote about the Tuaregs in the 14th century after Ibn Khaldun wrote about them in the 15th". So the correct sequence is Ibn Battuta writes about the Massufa → Ibn Khaldun still does not mention Tuaregs → Tuaregs emerge, yes?

 

[dark-mysterio]

ok thanks everyone for your response