Suggestion regarding names of Slavic cultures in SWMH

[Moarice]

Currently all Slavic cultures in the mod end with "i" or, in case of Czech and Moravian, "ý". This is not, however, entirely correct gramatically.
"I" ending implies that gender of the thing we're referring to is masculine, and since there are also female characters in the game, it is pretty much like calling a woman "sir", or something along these lines.
The easiest way to fix it would be to end culture names of Slavs with "a", so that it refers to cultures (e. g. Polska kultura, Hrvatska kultura Balgarska kultura etc.), not individuals.
This would, however, lead us to a certain problem: name of the Vendi culture. "Wends" is a pretty vague term, as it can sometimes refer to all Slavs, not just the ones living in Pomerania and Lusatia. My advice? Scrap this name entirely and change the culture's name to Pòmòrska, which should (I say should because I don't really know Kashubian) be the name of "Pomeranian culture" in Kashubian - one of the last three languages left of the in-game culture. I decided to go with Kashubian because I couldn't find either North nor South Lusatian word for the region. Also, I decided to name the culture Pomeranian because in most starts it encompasses only the region of Pomerania, with the exception of TOG start where it also has parts of eastern Germany, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it like this.
Feedback would be appreciated.

 

[Thure]

Another name for the Wends would be Polabians/Polabski
Or Veleti or Lutici.

 

[theKing1988]

Well obviously it will not be a good idea to use culture names ending with A. The culture names are not just on the map to signify where Poles, Bulgarians and Croats live, they are if you cut down to the core of the matter endonyms who can accurately portray the characters of the different cultures.

And obviously, A Polish character in-game is not a Polish (Which is basically what he would turn into if we used Polska Kultura, which is Polish Culture, with then culture removed), but a Pole. For some languages this is less problematic to pull of than for others, but for consistency's sake, we have decided to go with masculinum for the Culture names

 

[theKing1988]

The -a suffix wouldn't work as stated above, don't forget the number of applications in the events. Slightly problematic are the religion names, because there is a presumption it will serve both as a noun and an adjective. The infidel revocation as an example, mentions 'a filthy X', X works with Christian, Muslim, but less so with Apostolic (in fact, even bit unnaturaly with Orthodox given the usual phrasing) or Jewish.

I think the Wend culture would work best if the Lusatian, Polabian and Pommeranian (Kashubian+Slovincian) split happened.

Well a split could still be discussed, it has just received a lot less attention and impetus from us, since Elvain stopped as a SWMH Dev.

But we would certainly be willing to take a look at it, if you guys wanna argue for this or that split. And then discuss it amongst ourselves. There is certainly enough provinces for the area to be able to maintain 2 or 3 cultures, but i have no clue personally how clunky or not-clunky the split will be on a character level.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Speaking of which, I noticed that generic Russian names are using the form "ot" (от) that have nothing to do with medieval Russian "surnames". This is probably either vanilla thing or something, but when it was included it was probably designed to represent the conjunction "iz" (из; which looks like bad Google translate, lol). Nevertheless this one looks quite unnatural for the medieval Russian tradition too.

Perhaps such generic names could be created with the suffix "-sky" (-ский) instead? For example: Pskov+sky=Pskovsky, Chernigov+sky=Chernigovsky, Novgorod+sky=Novgorodsky etc This is not absolutely ideal also because it would produce some mistakes too (for example Moskva+sky=Moskvasky instead of correct Moskovsky, or Poltava+sky=Poltavasky instead of Poltavsky), but in my opinion it is still much better then just "ot" or even "iz" conjunctions which doesn't make any sense for Old Rus at all.

 

[Palfouri]

Well obviously it will not be a good idea to use culture names ending with A. The culture names are not just on the map to signify where Poles, Bulgarians and Croats live, they are if you cut down to the core of the matter endonyms who can accurately portray the characters of the different cultures.

And obviously, A Polish character in-game is not a Polish (Which is basically what he would turn into if we used Polska Kultura, which is Polish Culture, with then culture removed), but a Pole. For some languages this is less problematic to pull of than for others, but for consistency's sake, we have decided to go with masculinum for the Culture names

On that note, why do all the Iberian Romance cultures use the feminine forms (Castellana, Portuguesa, Catalana, etc.)?

 

[theKing1988]

Well, i'll certainly get the Spanish speakers on the team to look into that

 

[BigPharma]

Speaking of which, I noticed that generic Russian names are using the form "ot" (от) that have nothing to do with medieval Russian "surnames". This is probably either vanilla thing or something, but when it was included it was probably designed to represent the conjunction "iz" (из; which looks like bad Google translate, lol). Nevertheless this one looks quite unnatural for the medieval Russian tradition too.

Perhaps such generic names could be created with the suffix "-sky" (-ский) instead? For example: Pskov+sky=Pskovsky, Chernigov+sky=Chernigovsky, Novgorod+sky=Novgorodsky etc This is not absolutely ideal also because it would produce some mistakes too (for example Moskva+sky=Moskvasky instead of correct Moskovsky, or Poltava+sky=Poltavasky instead of Poltavsky), but in my opinion it is still much better then just "ot" or even "iz" conjunctions which doesn't make any sense for Old Rus at all.

Looking at the full list of Russian culture place names though, it's going to be impractical to change to a dynasty suffix of -skij largely because a) so many places already have -skij or -skaja in their name and appending an additional adjectival marker would be nonsensical b) some places use the neuter adjective endings, like Bogorodichnoye, which again is incompatible, and c) special cases like Yaroslavl being Yaroslavskij simply can't be covered. I was initially hoping it would be fixed by using older names of the cities (to use your example, Moskva would instead be Moskov', producing Moskovsky), but some pretty major cases would still fall through the cracks.

That being said, I agree that the current system doesn't really make sense either since the place names are in the nominative case and "ot" (and "iz") takes the genitive case, but given the limitations of the game, it's the best we can do.

 

[Ese Khan]

Speaking of which, I think "Slavianskaya Vera" should be changed to something more... uh, Old Slavic, like Rodnovera or something (I can hear the HIP team sighing once again).

 

[Herr Doctor]

Looking at the full list of Russian culture place names though, it's going to be impractical to change to a dynasty suffix of -skij largely because a) so many places already have -skij or -skaja in their name and appending an additional adjectival marker would be nonsensical b) some places use the neuter adjective endings, like Bogorodichnoye, which again is incompatible, and c) special cases like Yaroslavl being Yaroslavskij simply can't be covered. I was initially hoping it would be fixed by using older names of the cities (to use your example, Moskva would instead be Moskov', producing Moskovsky), but some pretty major cases would still fall through the cracks.

That being said, I agree that the current system doesn't really make sense either since the place names are in the nominative case and "ot" (and "iz") takes the genitive case, but given the limitations of the game, it's the best we can do.

Good points, but please change it at last to "iz". "Ot" used in sentences like "London is far from Moscow", "iz" what is used for "I am from X place" ("я из такого-то места"). It's also bad for names as I've pointed, but at last makes more sense grammatically.

 

[Aasmul]

While I can certainly see the merit in bringing more flavour to the "Wendic" regions, I've got some reservation on the propposed culture split.

To the best of my knowledge we got no way to differntiate the dynasties/names/toponyms of a threeway split as sources are spares to put it mildly. And all three would need a chunck of new dynasties added inorder to avoid everyone being of the glorius dynasty Smith. With one Wend culture its fairly hard supplying the dynasty names needed, I don't know how we would be able to supply enough for three.
Then there is question of whether a three way split matches with how we veiw culture in game terms, or whether we are midway between culture and what is defined by tribal titular title holders.
A three way split would give us a bunch of cases that doesn't fit under any of them or be weird with maluses towards other groups. What of Rügen folks for instance? they sure ain't Pommeranian at this level of differntation, but would fit even more oddly with the others. Then there is tribes arround Brandenburg like the Hevelli, would you make them Sorbic or Polabian? They could fit fine in either but it would be weird with them having malues towards either tribes in Lusatia or the Lutici. We got the opposite issue with Oborites and the Lutici who would all end up in the Polabian culture, why would they be more chummy with eachother than with with the Lusatians/Sorbs or Pommerish folks?

 

[vyshan]

Speaking of which, I think "Slavianskaya Vera" should be changed to something more... uh, Old Slavic, like Rodnovera or something (I can hear the HIP team sighing once again).

of course to be fair the Slavic faiths and the Romvuan ones could use with an update to give them plenty of life. as they are rather bare bones atm.

 

[theKing1988]

of course to be fair the Slavic faiths and the Romvuan ones could use with an update to give them plenty of life. as they are rather bare bones atm.

Which is also why i responded to the desire to see work done on the Norse, that they already have more features than the rest of the Pagan Religious group combined

 

[Rylock]

Which is also why i responded to the desire to see work done on the Norse, that they already have more features than the rest of the Pagan Religious group combined

If someone wants to add those features to the other pagans, then super.

It won't be me, however. I have absolutely zero interest in adding anything to pagan religions.

 

[vyshan]

Which is also why i responded to the desire to see work done on the Norse, that they already have more features than the rest of the Pagan Religious group combined

Haven't played a nordic pagan so I am curious what features have been added for them compared to vanilla. It might help give me some ideas on how to flesh out romuva and the slavic faiths.

 

[theKing1988]

Haven't played a nordic pagan so I am curious what features have been added for them compared to vanilla. It might help give me some ideas on how to flesh out romuva and the slavic faiths.

There haven't been added anything to the religion compared to vanilla. What i reference in the second paragraph is obviously not related to religion. If it is my post you're looking at

 

[Herr Doctor]

Please forgive an addendum as a separate post:
Just noticed a nitpick, back in the day it was -скïй (maybe in these oldest sources even -скïи?) instead of -ский. There is certainly food for thought in regards to optional representation of the archaic cyrillic characters within the limited means we have. As an example. should fita be transcribed as f or th?

I doubt that this would help however, because 90% of all toponyms and characters names in Russian lands now in the mod are in modern Russian with some sporadically added modern Ukrainian and Belarusian, which are very different from the original language and names forms of the high medieval chronicles. "Converting" those anachronistic names with old grammar would hardly improve them.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Yeah I am fully aware of that and already long ago thought of different ways of changing (basically overhauling) this sorry state, but it always turned into disappointment over the limitations of the usage of special characters, such as no way to specify yat' (ě, the logical transliteration, being unavailable), one example of the many issues. I don't know what to do but we can't just let it be so for eternity. The Volkovysk alone, mentioned by you, sir, in the SWMH thread, was Волковыескъ.

Yep. Plus the better name for the area would be defiantly Novogorodok - centre of the 12th-13th centuries local principality and important town and castle here later. Volkovyesk could feat one of the castles nicely. There are so many that I've always been a bit reluctant to make proper list. If the SWMH team is interested we could work here something together for them.

Lithuanian names are not ideal either (for example "Dzukija" which is 19th century's modern creation).

 

[Herr Doctor]

Yes, the "List..." is the great source as most names are in their old high medieval spelling (probably taken from the older chronicles) instead of the time when it was created (14th-15th centuries).