What I find amazing about this discussion is that it did not show up until Pdox made black characters available.
Stay classy, guys.
Stay classy, guys.
[Suggestion] Racial prejudice impeding marital union
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The problem is that it's silly to have 12th century Norway ruled by black people. Before the black character portraits became available, it was not a 'problem'.
Unrelated, I LOLed at a Emirate of Sweden when some blonde queen with Arabian roots ruled the kingdom for a while.
Unrelated, I LOLed at a Emirate of Sweden when some blonde queen with Arabian roots ruled the kingdom for a while.
I haven't had a problem with different races mixing in circumstances that wouldn't exist, i.e. some Anglo-Saxon Duke marrying a princess from Ghana! The only mixing I've seen in game makes sense, that being some Arab Emirates near Ghana taking over areas of Ghana and marrying princesses, as well as successful Jihads leading to the nobles of those Muslim lands to make wives of the newly conquered women of those lands.
So basically, from what I've seen, it only occurs if there is a situation where it would occur.
Erm...why?
So basically, from what I've seen, it only occurs if there is a situation where it would occur.
Erm...why?
It's not based on distance. You can have 15 or 5 days for the same character in the same location on two separate occasions.
Hasn't Abyssinia been available from start? I'm pretty sure I tried them early on.
What I find most strange is not the distance as such, but rather how you can have a nice discussion with some Christian King south of not very friendly Egypt. I'm not sure how that'd work.
Yeah, but they were given Arab faces...so it was like playing Iceland but with Chinese character portraits...not great!
I think its great that this post flew over everybody's head.
On another note, death to political correctness.
A distance, religion, and culture penalty would fix this, ofcourse it should be less depending on dynastic prestige.
Then you are only seeing what you want to see because the BLC mod was a direct result of this very discussion when the game first came out.
This is the main problem. In the Middle-High Middle Ages in particular, racial differences between nobles were often ignored in favour of political advantages. The BIG factor was religion, but often not even that: Iberian nobility, for example, married Muslims from time to time (Portuguese Kings are actually descendents of the Islamic Prophet from a marriage with a Muslim princess in the early days, something that even today gets the Saudis to fawn all over our royal heir every time he visits that country).
The REAL issue is that Europeans HAD NO IDEA where Abyssinia was at the time (not to mention Ghana), and it's REALLY VERY HARD to marry people when you don't even know where they are on the planet. So there should be a block to marriages between Europeans and people from Subsaharan Africa or Abyssinia, at least until an unbroken path of christian territory is made to those lands. Muslims should have less trouble, as they are less likely to be cut off (also, technically they would be in control of routes around the Arabian Peninsula that should allow them to circumvent christian incursions through the Middle East... not that those actually stopped most brides moving around in peacetime - tough Muslims moved near Templar and less scrupulous Christian lords' strongholds at their own risk (Raynald de Châtillon is a prime example of a lord that attacked muslim bridal convoys).
Raczynski said:
Raczynski, note that while the time period of CK2 has little racism, there is plenty of proof of racial awareness and discrimination in earlier times - one only has to recall the anti-germanic pogrom that took place in Italy in the early Vth century, where having blonde hair was pretty much a death sentence at the hands of the Romans.
Also, here in the Peninsula many of the Laws we have from the Visigothic Kings are aimed specifically at preventing interracial marriages (they were concerned their germanic stock would be dilluted if free marriages were avaliable): there is a reason why the Goths choose to keep following Arianism [a christian heresy named after the Priest Arius of Alexandria, who claimed the late IIIth century-early IVth century that Christ was only the Son of God]: by doing so, they had a good pretext to keep their marriages between themselves and exclude the native Catholics.
In the Muslim world, something similar (maybe the opposite of, really) happened: Arabs were seen as the best people around (having been the people in which the Prophet had been born and the ones that started Islam), so having Arab blood was a matter of great pride. Everyone thus tried to marry an Arab if they had a choice. Arabs themselves had to be careful or else they'd lose their 'superior' status due to too much intermarriages (by the XIth century, most Emirs in Iberia claimed to be of Arab stock, and while soime - like the Emirs of Zaragoza - truly were so, most were Berbers by this time.
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some random duke has a black portrait instead of white. oh noes we need a new patch
Unfortunately I have to agree. Just look at the political correctness that went on with HoI3.
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Actually it is instant in many cases. If I'm in Iceland and I send a gift to the Sultan of Persia, the money appears in his hands instantaneously. Some diplomatic actions however do take some time. If I want to propose marriage for example, I guess there's a messenger on a Pegasus who can get from Iceland to Persia in a week. So, yes, very unrealistic.
This is the best solution to my mind. Just do it the exact same way as the Mercenary capital system.
I... I gotta...Wut?
Well, the sermons initiating the First Crusade must be called racially motivated in part. Same with much of the reconquest of Spain. I know some of the late slave-holding in Norway/Sweden was racially determined.
The Arabs had laws restricting slavery of Arabs, but though it pretty neat for everyone else.
Race was then, as it's now, just one more way to differentiate. Far easier to kill "the Other" after all.
Yeah, just like the first ones initiating the conquest of Spain and the holy land in the 7-8th century...
This issue has been there since day 1. I don't prejudice against other races based on race - I always wanted arabs to stop infiltrating Europe, for example. And threads like this always keep popping up.
I'm sure you had a point to make here, but I'd appreciate it if you tried it with less subtext and more ... text
Didn't get what you meant.
+1 on all. Neither black nor Asian descent would complicate matters nearly as much (if any at all) as the wrong religion or a savage manner. Especially anybody intermarrying with Muslims would end up being mixed racially.
One word, and I really mean one word: House-of-David. I can't imagine a Christian noble who would pass up. Even the seventh daughter of the seventh son of a minor Zagwe prince (they proceded from a Solomonid princess) would probably incur religious reverence. Imagine someone who is, well, a descendant of King David. In terms of mediaeval Christian Europe, it'd probably at least equal thecomparable desireability of Muhammad descendants in the Muslim world. For Muslims, combining Davidic descent with descent from Muhammad would probably be the gold.
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Maybe there could be some kind of fog of war so you can only "know" about places that are somewhat close to you or that you've sent your chancellor to. And you can only marry from the places that you know about.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed in this quote. Unless biracial portraits are added.
Make the distance penalty lesser with rank, so a king can marry an ethiopian princess but the count of orleans can't marry a girl in russia, but has to marry within an area near him, within 2 duchies radius or so.
"Racial" prejudice in the time frame of the game is quite simply anachronistic. There's already a "foreigner" relation and that pretty much represents people's views on "race" back then i.e. it was your culture/ethnicity. The infamous wacked-out theories of scientific racism only took off after the transatlantic slave trade to justify slavery, before that race meant culture or nationality, even in the 19th century Irish immigrants to the United States were thought of as a different race from the established English-Americans. Modern prejudices like what we now know as racism have no place in this game, they simply didn't exist aside from xenophobia, religious bigotry, and barbarian-hating a la the Greeks.
That said, religious blocs should be represented, so the difficulty of Europe communicating with Abyssinia is represented. Also, I've been saying it over and over, but there needs to be more inter religious interaction besides war, like in Spain. Alliances crossed religion quite frequently even during the Crusades, politics and power always came before religion. It would be nice if there were more to interacting with other religions than the r/atheism version of medieval history (burn and kill heathens 24/7 for the glory of God). However, I've got big hopes that the Pagan DLC will do this, it's the perfect opportunity after all.
That said, religious blocs should be represented, so the difficulty of Europe communicating with Abyssinia is represented. Also, I've been saying it over and over, but there needs to be more inter religious interaction besides war, like in Spain. Alliances crossed religion quite frequently even during the Crusades, politics and power always came before religion. It would be nice if there were more to interacting with other religions than the r/atheism version of medieval history (burn and kill heathens 24/7 for the glory of God). However, I've got big hopes that the Pagan DLC will do this, it's the perfect opportunity after all.
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