Suggestion : Overextension Calculation System

[Duman]

Hello everyone. Lately I downloaded interesting mod called extended timeline, so I had a chance to play with Roman Empire with its largest borders but when I conquered 2 provinces from the Tribes in Britannia, I got %66 OE and this situation effected the entire Empire which makes no sense at all. I think its completely wrong. When you create a large Empire, it makes your country "multicultural" and large Empires can conquer and integrate any other land with different culture much easier than any OPM with %100 dominant culture. Because one of them is multicultural Empire and the other one is nation-state. When we should give an example about religious, not culture. Thinking about " Ottoman Tolerance " would help how multicultural Empires solve this issue easily with the right political decisions.

Here is how Paradox can solve this issue.

1. Provinces with same culture as you are and accepted cultures shouldnt cause an overextension. By same culture I mean the exact same culture, not the cultural group. For example when Leinster conquers Connaught they shouldnt get overextension but when Scotland conquers Connaught they should have overextension.

2. Overextension percent should be calculated with comparing how large your country is.

Every province has its own overextension value already, I suggest : Game should calculate all of your core provinces overextension value and make it your overextension capacity. And when you conquer new provinces that effects overextension, % of newly conquered province should be compared to your overextension capacity. By comparing them game should give you " real " overextension percent for these provinces.

Lets say there are 2 countries X and Y. Lets say all provinces in the world cause %20 OE.

X is OPM. Y has 20 provinces. All provinces core.

X's total OE capacity would be 20.

While Y's total OE capacity would be 400.

When X conquers any other province. We would have to compare it with his capacity. Capacity 20, OE value of newly conquered province 20. %100 OVEREXTENSION.

Then X conquers any other provinces after he makes the last one core. Now he has capacity 40! Now he conquers one more province. He only gets %50 OVEREXTENSION this time. Cuz he is already larger than before, he cored province with different culture than his state and his state already succesfully integrated it.

Lets speak about Y. Y is strong country with 20 provinces. Which gives him 400 overextension capacity.

When Y conquers one province. We will have to compare 400 to 20. And it gives him %5 OE. So by that while X can only conquer 1 province, Y as a larger country can conquer 10 provinces without thinking about overextension. And THIS MAKES SENSE.

Cuz OPM conquers 1 province he DOUBLES his provinces, he gets bigger TWICE as he was before. It is much more difficult issue for him. But when 20 provinced-country conquers 1 province IT CANT BE SAME OVEREXTENSION AS OPM HAS.

 

[uishax]

There needs to be additional 100% something base capacity for every nation.
Because an OPM historically would have no difficulty simply administrating a extra province.
Combination of base value + relative size scaling would be much better.

 

[bleakie]

This issue has been brought over and over again in the past months. I have to say that your proposal is way too generous towards large countries. To start a meaningful discussion, one should at least use the current diplo-vassalization mechanic (this means over-extension capacity being proportional to the square root of a size parameter) as the base model.

 

[Thrake]

So, with what you suggest, if I start as OPM with 1 base tax, I couldn't reallistically conquer any province. Even if I get another 1 base tax, 100% OE, ie everything goes wrong, it would even go crazy if say I were to claim a 5 base tax province, while the Ottomans could still like annex Hungary in one shot and get away with this? It does not sounds good to me.

 

[Casadoom]

So, with what you suggest, if I start as OPM with 1 base tax, I couldn't reallistically conquer any province. Even if I get another 1 base tax, 100% OE, ie everything goes wrong, it would even go crazy if say I were to claim a 5 base tax province, while the Ottomans could still like annex Hungary in one shot and get away with this? It does not sounds good to me.

The OP's numbers are bad but that doesn't mean that his suggestion is bad.

A bigger nations should have a much easier time integrating new provinces than a small one. A system that slowly increases your overextension limit would be much appreciated.

Personally, the way I would have done it is the following:

A OPM can grab 5 provinces without going over the overextension limit and takes 36 months to integrate its territory.
A Big Blob can grab 33 provinces without going over the overextension limit and takes 240 months to integrate its territory.

Both nations can get 1.66 provinces per year. Done!

 

[Duman]

So, with what you suggest, if I start as OPM with 1 base tax, I couldn't reallistically conquer any province. Even if I get another 1 base tax, 100% OE, ie everything goes wrong, it would even go crazy if say I were to claim a 5 base tax province, while the Ottomans could still like annex Hungary in one shot and get away with this? It does not sounds good to me.

Well, if we are talking about Ottomans I should make you remember the fact : Ottomans annexed the Mamelukes in one shot in real history.

Ofcourse there could be more detailed version of my system. I only suggest that how much overextension I get should be calculated by how big my country is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman–Mamluk_War_(1516–1517)

 

[Niels.p]

I like the game very much, but currently it lacks two things for me: Unrealistic revolts because of having overextension and an unrealistic spread of your core empire.

I hope for a totally new coring system and in combination a better overextension system. And I got a totally different idea on what could changed.

Instead of coring a territorry in EU4 you actually do completely else in the province. You either install your administration in the province or reform the local administration too yours. coring at the moment shouldn't be this like, because a core is an intergral part of your empire and a province cant be a core of you empire in a few years. However having a good efffective administration in the province is doable in this time peroid.

Lets say that making a core is now building a cityhouse (this building represents your local government in the province). It takes 12 months to build it and costs as much ADM points as a core. The cityhouse is filled with people loyal too your empire when its completed. The local government is loyal to your nation and can effectively reduce revolt risk in the province. And it has the typical administrative capabilities. Build troops, change religion. The local government makes to province effectively as safe as a core but it has risks nontheless because the local people do not consider heir province to be part of your empire just yet.

The province is not you core, thats I would like to reshape in the old EU3 style. It takes 50 years too core in EU3 and I like the logic behind it. Yes this is a long time but a core is an intergral part of your empire and that shouldn't be done in 10 years or even 1 year (all the local war veterans should dead before the local people feel part of your empire). However EU4 is filled with modifiers and I really like that part of EU4. And the 50 years coringtime should also have approraite modifiers. Same culture group, religion, NI's and all should have effect on the time (both positive and negative).

Now lets introduce overextension. In this system it doesn't going hurt your cores that much. But it will hurt the non-core provinces in your Empire. This is more logical since non-core provinces are more likely too revolt because the dont feel part of your empire. OE will increase the revolt risk more in non-cores and revolt risk is lowered by cores. This way you can ensure a logical way of revolts. Non-core parts of the empire hate your warmongering and size oppertunity too revolt but meanwhile your core part will support you through tough times.

So basic summary of my idea:

1. Coring costs and time is replaced by building a cityhouse. This cityhouse represents the local government and administration and this buiding will reduce revolt risk too a normal corelevel. And you can all the other things like building units, convert religion etc. The cityhouse is build in 12 months and costs the same amount of ADM points

2. Coring now takes a flat 50 years just as in EU3. culture group, NI's, religion have effect on the time. Coring doesn't cost any ADM points, because you put those points in building the cityhouse.

3. Overextension will now effect you non-core provinces more and your core territorries will be less likely to revolt. In order to made sure that the rebels will revolt in logical areas and will only revolt when your empire is a bit weak (low stability, high war exhaustion, high OE).

I know that this system is not likely too be adopted (or even just one part of it) because it changes very fundemental parts of the game, however I do appreciate criticism and the thoughts of others on this idea.

 

[Lehran]

You dont have to play with an extended timeline to see the problem. I've just unified the HRE and own whole middle and east europe. Therefor my army can destroy everyone, but I can only take 4-5 provinces at once and then I have to wait for years since overextension would kill me otherwise. That's just annoying. (And I already have nationalism events and uprisings in every part of my empire)

 

[Thrake]

Well, if we are talking about Ottomans I should make you remember the fact : Ottomans annexed the Mamelukes in one shot in real history.

Ofcourse there could be more detailed version of my system. I only suggest that how much overextension I get should be calculated by how big my country is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman–Mamluk_War_(1516–1517)

If you go with history, I would argue that while they did it once, it was not the rule, while, with your system, instant annexation of the ennemy would be the rule (once you've reached the critical mass). I would rather have the skirmish style of EU IV than an annex-Europe-in-a-century style. With the current system, while short term wise, countries do not grow on the historical pace, long term wise, the current system reflects how it was growing historically in terms of pace roughly, and it allows to keep the player on his toes for a long time.

 

[CanOmer]

Overextension system needs urgent overhaul. Why does a big empire of 200 province gets +10 global revolt risk from taking 10 province (50 base tax as an example)?

 

[PandaL]

I think OE should be used to constrain rapid expansion for small nation. So when you are a OPM, and suddenly double, triple, or even quadruple your size, you should have big problem managing your land. However since you are still small, you shall not cause that much worry from other nations especially the ones bigger than you.

On the other hand, AE and coring cost/time should be used to constrain rapid expansion for big nation. So when you are big and still trying to expand, other nation will be more worried and you will have harder time to convince others the new provinces being your rightful land. At the same time, you shall not really having that much trouble managing your empire just because you add one more province to your already large empire.

Now also add in the coalition system, you should have a more, dare I say, realistic diplomatic outcome - big and dangerous nations shall more likely be the target of coalition. In fact I think nations shall only allow to join coalition against nation that is at least at similar strength or stronger than themselves. Coalition shall be a way for smaller or similar size nations gathering up to protect themselves or deal with some significant threat. It shall not become a way for the big blobs gathering up to bully a little kingdom. (though I am not expert in history so I don't know if that actually happened in history)

 

[panionios]

And if you add ADM skill as a factor in calculating OE (the higher the better, the lower the worse), we will have EU III!

 

[hwoosh]

I made a modest suggestion in another thread: Have OE tick down slowly as the province is being cored, rather than remaining at its full value then abruptly dropping to zero. It would make OE less crippling in the medium-term, but still serve as a deterrent to rampant expansionism.

 

[CanOmer]

I made these changes and playing to test it as Teutonic Order. If everything goes well I will add these changes to my mod.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

defines.lua:

TRUCE_YEARS = 1, --5,
POWER_MAX = 1500, -- 999,
PS_BUILD_BUILDING = 3, -- 10,
PS_ASSAULT = 1, -- 5,
PS_CHANGE_CULTURE = 75, --25,
PROVINCE_BUILDING_LEVEL_THRESHOLD = 7, --5,
OVEREXTENSION_FACTOR = 1.0, -- 4.0,
GARRISON_SIZE = 250, -- 1000,
HEAVY_SHIP_MANPOWER_COST = 0.2, -- 0.0,
LIGHT_SHIP_MANPOWER_COST = 0.1, -- 0.0,
GALLEY_SHIP_MANPOWER_COST = 0.25, -- 0.0,
TRANSPORT_SHIP_MANPOWER_COST = 0.1, -- 0.0,

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

00_static_modifiers.txt:

non_core = {
#no current effects.
local_tax_modifier = -0.2 #MyMod
local_missionary_strength = -0.02 #MyMod
local_manpower_modifier = -0.4 #MyMod
}

over_extension = {
global_foreign_trade_power = -4.0 #was -1.0 MyMod
stability_cost_modifier = 2.0 #was 0.5 MyMod
papal_influence = -8 #was -2 MyMod
mercenary_cost = 2.0 #was 0.5 MyMod
diplomatic_reputation = -8 #was -2 MyMod
relations_decay_of_me = -1.0 #was -0.25 MyMod
global_revolt_risk = 0 #was 5 MyMod
bureaucrats_influence = 2.0 #was 0.5 MyMod
global_manpower_modifier = -0.1 #MyMod
global_tax_modifier = -0.1 #MyMod
trade_efficiency = -0.2 #MyMod
global_missionary_strength = -0.1 #MyMod

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

[WeissRaben]

The proposal is good IF there is static OE as well (the administrative burden of regulating a nation). Expansion would then mean less for large countries, taken on its own, but it would still add load on the administration's back. While a smaller nation could have problems integrating even a reductive territory, but would be in a way better position when that's done.

 

[Raliks]

It makes sense until you become big enough at around 20-30 provinces where you can easily conquer 15-ish provinces from one war without having to face any bad consequeses. You'd have to add an additonal modifier to the overextension, maybe me sort of soft cap at 5-10 uncored provinces.