Suggestion on cuckoldry

[Hanako Seishin]

So, I think I figured a way to make the player care if they were cuckolded. Because as it is now in CK2 the right solution is always to trust your wife, even if half your children were unexplainably black. And it never felt right.

So how can it be solved? Of course, the most obvious solution is game over if you ended up not really having genes of your original dynasty. However, as obviously, that would be too harsh and random, but then if you remove the randomness and make the player always know which child is theirs and which isn't, it's no fun too. Although, as I mentioned before, there should be more control over it, but 100% control also removes the fun.

So what I'm suggesting instead is: on succession if it happens that your oldest son is not actually yours, he still inherits (because everyone around think they are), but you as a player end up playing the closest dynasty member who is its member in actuality and not just belief [among the landed ones for now, but since they said unlanded gameplay is not impossible in the future, imagine trying to retake the throne from an unlanded position]. This then makes it actually important to give land to your sons, since you can't be 100% sure which of them you'll end up playing as. And then when it happened you can try and regain the throne by pushing your claim, and you can plot against the main heir to discover and expose that they are a bastard, which should give them a large enough opinion malus for more vassals to back you in your faction.

 

[junassa]

This is actually an interesting idea. I'm going to post it on reddit and pretend it's mine.

I was just thinking how much I really enjoyed switching (to less powerful) characters with the crusade mechanics in CK 2 and I was hoping for more events that would allow that. This sounds like a fun addition to that sort of mechanic.

 

[guinea prince]

Because as it is now in CK2 the right solution is always to trust your wife, even if half your children were unexplainably black. And it never felt right.

I still don't get how one takes this as granted as the right solution.

Every time I'd get "doubt besets me!", I'd first see if I'm paranoid: if yes, doubt will ALWAYS beset me, pay the gold and see what happens. If no: assume there's a reason for my doubt, pay the gold. If nothing turns up, remain suspicious and find a way to bypass that child. If something ever turns up, imprison wife. Blind/house arrest for life if I need her stats, execute/divorce (if I can afford the piety and feel like it) if I need legitimate children.

Especially since acknowledging her adultery means not just free casus belli on arresting her, but free casus belli on her lover as well. Toss that horndog in prison: execute him if he's worthless, ransom him if he's higher tier, revoke if you feel like it. If he's a vassal's vassal, him "escaping and revolting" means he merely flees to a foreign court, while his title defaults to his heir. An easy and free way to remove a problem. Otherwise, if your own vassal, a free and easy way to remove a problem.

The road of my wive's infidelities was paved with the scrotums and eyeballs of her lovers, and lined with their crucified bodies. Unless, by chance, they were drowned in wine or trampled by elephants or fed to bears.

The child, meanwhile, I keep on hand for my own uses. Generals in general to earn their keep with their lives, marry them out to other realms for alliances and claims if I doubt how "mine" they are. I may just marry them to their cousins if I'm feeling generous, to "purify" the possibility of their tainted blood and make sure that their children will, at least, be of righteous seed. Goodness knows my relative vassals are rubbish at producing offspring and consolidate their mini-realms far too often.



So, it is bizarre to me that when this thread pops up, it's always with "the obvious answer is to ignore the infidelity, how do we change this?" To which I ask, "how do you possibly benefit from ignoring the infidelity, particularly when claiming adultery means you can exchange your wife for a younger model?"

 

[junassa]

I still don't get how one takes this as granted as the right solution.

Every time I'd get "doubt besets me!", I'd first see if I'm paranoid: if yes, doubt will ALWAYS beset me, pay the gold and see what happens. If no: assume there's a reason for my doubt, pay the gold. If nothing turns up, remain suspicious and find a way to bypass that child. If something ever turns up, imprison wife. Blind/house arrest for life if I need her stats, execute/divorce (if I can afford the piety and feel like it) if I need legitimate children.

Especially since acknowledging her adultery means not just free casus belli on arresting her, but free casus belli on her lover as well. Toss that horndog in prison: execute him if he's worthless, ransom him if he's higher tier, revoke if you feel like it. If he's a vassal's vassal, him "escaping and revolting" means he merely flees to a foreign court, while his title defaults to his heir. An easy and free way to remove a problem. Otherwise, if your own vassal, a free and easy way to remove a problem.

The road of my wive's infidelities was paved with the scrotums and eyeballs of her lovers, and lined with their crucified bodies. Unless, by chance, they were drowned in wine or trampled by elephants or fed to bears.

The child, meanwhile, I keep on hand for my own uses. Generals in general to earn their keep with their lives, marry them out to other realms for alliances and claims if I doubt how "mine" they are. I may just marry them to their cousins if I'm feeling generous, to "purify" the possibility of their tainted blood and make sure that their children will, at least, be of righteous seed. Goodness knows my relative vassals are rubbish at producing offspring and consolidate their mini-realms far too often.



So, it is bizarre to me that when this thread pops up, it's always with "the obvious answer is to ignore the infidelity, how do we change this?" To which I ask, "how do you possibly benefit from ignoring the infidelity, particularly when claiming adultery means you can exchange your wife for a younger model?"

Well I normally try to find out. I even roll with an achievement compatible mod now tbh. Usually I play pagan with eldership so I can always pass on my titles to someone of my kin but sometimes I don't care if the wife is also of my kin. I played a Mercia game where obviously I didn't have eldership so I was going to send my supposed heir on a long boat trip but my ruler died before I could get a chance. IIRC he created two bloodlines. I had him matri married to a kinswoman so in the end they are all of my dynasty anyway.

 

[Hanako Seishin]

"how do you possibly benefit from ignoring the infidelity, particularly when claiming adultery means you can exchange your wife for a younger model?"

I didn't search for a genius wife to exchange her later, not as long as she can have kids anyway.
And even the kid isn't mine, there's still a chance she'll pass her genius train onto it (especially if I'm not yet genius myself, then there's really no difference if the child is mine or not).
And even if the child isn't mine, it's still beneficial to pretend it is, for the sake of alliances, claims, spare heirs in case the main one dies, etc, basically it's always better to have more kids (except in gavelkind, but nowadays it too can be solved with duels), especially given how in CK3 it'll be actually important to spread your dynasty wide.

Edit: also, see how my suggestion makes it actually important to have more of your sons landed. In CK2 you just get an "unlanded sons" warning, but the malus it gives to prestige is so meaningless, there's no reason not to ignore it.

 

[mrinku]

Yeah.

I think I'll respectfully disagree (but not use the red X as that seems to get people's noses out of joint).

As it is, sex, love, pregnancy and parentage in CK2 is a hot mess of old ideas, kludges and half-measures. It needs a good overhaul, for sure, and I have faith that this will be the case for CK3. We already know they're tackling gender preference - I expect paternity is right up there as well.

But I really don't like the idea that you get immediate, infallible confirmation that the child isn't that of the previous ruler. I would much rather head in the other direction, and allow succession when everyone *suspects* the truth, but the legal fiction is being maintained for the good of the realm. If the mother in question HAS had an affair, but maintained relations with her husband (the most likely scenario), how on earth can anyone tell who the real father is without modern paternity testing, or some unambiguous hereditary marker? Even the woman is unlikely to know for sure.

If he doesn't know, and the other guy doesn't know, and SHE doesn't know either, why should the player know, without cheats?

 

[Despotism]

I think they should just have ignoring infidelity cause massive stress, since ignoring infidelity is a gamey thing and in-character the king would care that his children aren't his.

Edit: And if you do inherit as someone who isn't your child, you will have a chance of having a secret that people can use against you, and if it is revealed that your father wasn't the king, you'll lose legitimacy in the eyes of your vassals, you will keep your title, but receive some negative modifier.

 

[Hanako Seishin]

If he doesn't know, and the other guy doesn't know, and SHE doesn't know either, why should the player know, without cheats?

The character also doesn't know that he is a videogame character being controlled by a person from a world above and that when they die that control would just pass to the heir. What I mean is, when playing the game you think in terms of "okay, if my oldest son inherits France, the France will become mine, but if my other son inherits it, it won't", which is not something any real ruler would think, for him once he's dead he's dead, France will never become _his_. But you can't escape it if you want the game to make sense as a game.

So for the secret bastard scenario, it's just that the disembodied spirit who the player controls who travels from possessing one character to the next, is actually connected to those character's genes and not people's beliefs, and thus can't possess someone who doesn't have them. If you think of it like that, playing as a "spirit of a dynasty", than it actually makes more sense than passing that spirit to someone not really blood related.

 

[makaramus]

I had regular marriage... no incest or someting
for some reason my son is inbred
next one is too
...
I started spying my wife after second
...
yea she was fing her brother -_-

 

[mrinku]

I had regular marriage... no incest or someting
for some reason my son is inbred
next one is too
...
I started spying my wife after second
...
yea she was fing her brother -_-

Yah. One kid is bad luck, or maybe a few great-grandparents in common or something. Otherwise...

...you might have found out is that your father had been less than faithful

(Must admit, sometimes when I get my Seduction Focus on I do lose track of all the kids. Couple of generations later that can come back to bite)

 

[mrinku]

The character also doesn't know that he is a videogame character being controlled by a person from a world above and that when they die that control would just pass to the heir. What I mean is, when playing the game you think in terms of "okay, if my oldest son inherits France, the France will become mine, but if my other son inherits it, it won't", which is not something any real ruler would think, for him once he's dead he's dead, France will never become _his_. But you can't escape it if you want the game to make sense as a game.

So for the secret bastard scenario, it's just that the disembodied spirit who the player controls who travels from possessing one character to the next, is actually connected to those character's genes and not people's beliefs, and thus can't possess someone who doesn't have them. If you think of it like that, playing as a "spirit of a dynasty", than it actually makes more sense than passing that spirit to someone not really blood related.

Yeah. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think it suits core gameplay, which is about the dynasty as a whole, and not following a Y chomosome's adventures in time and space.

But I'm not criticizing your viewpoint. Maybe it would make for a good game rule or mod?

 

[makaramus]

Yah. One kid is bad luck, or maybe a few great-grandparents in common or something. Otherwise...

also pope rejected to give me a divorce... I can only imagine he want me to kill her

at first one I was like "wait are we related... we cant be"
checked and saw no connection and I was like "is this trait got possibilty of appearing randomly? well 1 is fine he will die most likely"
second comes
"ok thats it I am a merciful player but you are overdoing it"

my letter to pope:
"dude my wife Fing her brother her children are literally born with 7 fingers or undevolped third leg I want a divorce"

pope:
"no"

Me:
"WHAT DO YOU MEAN NOOOO!?"

 

[Hanako Seishin]

Speaking of knowing things one shouldn't, how about this inbred trait? In a case of a secret affair specifically, how come everybody knows that the reason for the child's... let's call it problems... is incest? Might have been a totally random mutation or caused by something else. So from this point of view, instead of getting an inbred trait, an inbred child should instead get increased chance to get some genetic traits like weak and slow.
The same thing with homosexuality, though I guess they're already reworking it for CK3, so let's see what they come up with. Because it never made sense in CK2 how if you spy on someone and discover they're homosexual, it's a legitimate reason to imprison them, but if someone just has a homosexual trait, everybody's totally fine with it.

 

[mrinku]

Inbred can occur in the game with as little as two great-great-great-grandparents not being unique. So in practical terms with the usual pool of marriage partners it almost always has a chance of cropping up randomly, unless the game has yet to run for many generations. It's definitely no red flag that a mother is shagging her brother... could be that she and her husband (or lover... she may still be shagging *someone*) share a great-grandparent, which doesn't even show up on the character display.

Marrying as close as first cousins wasn't and still usually isn't legal incest. Though you might be able to talk a Pope around to giving you an annulment.

The way the game does inbreeding is one of the better mechanics, and well thought out.

In regards to homosexuality... well, everyone may *know* that Duke Fred is as camp as a row of pink tents, but that doesn't mean he's *active*, which is the actual sin. You can't lock up someone just because they're a bit fruity, even in medieval times, without it being tyranny.

On the other hand, spying would be assumed to uncover (or fabricate) evidence of active practices, which takes it to the next level. You've put serious resources in place to catch them in the act.

Having said that, Homosexuality should probably get hidden by default, like affairs.

 

[Hanako Seishin]

In regards to homosexuality... well, everyone may *know* that Duke Fred is as camp as a row of pink tents, but that doesn't mean he's *active*, which is the actual sin.

On the other hand, spying would be assumed to uncover (or fabricate) evidence of active practices, which takes it to the next level. You've put serious resources in place to catch them in the act.

Actually it occurred to me shortly after I've posted. Indeed, if you put in this way, it makes more sense. I think I've even read recently on wikipedia that even in the sharia law there must be three witnesses confirming they saw the actual penetration before the victim would be stoned. Though somehow I doubt it's actually followed to the letter.

The way the game does inbreeding is one of the better mechanics, and well thought out.

No, I'm not talking about how it assigns the trait, but about the trait itself. In real life you just see a child being weak or slow or sickly or whatever, you can't know if it's the result of incest or not, especially in cases like you mentioned where the relation goes back to great-great-great-grandparents. Or if the same pair of parents have one child who is imbecile and another who is imbred, how do the medieval people decide that for one it must be a random mutation and for the other result of incest?

 

[Nikolai]

No. Just... No.

 

[Khelder]

While I tend to be more of a mid-way concerning adultery, if I catch them I kill them but not going out of my way otherwise.

I still think it could be an interesting game rule to have to play as blood related character. It would force the player to consider landing their children in case their heir is not really theirs. Ofcourse as I said it would have to be a game rule, so everyone is not forced to use it. So, basically there would be, if using the game rule, check made for the "real" parent on succession and if it comes up as no, then you play as closest landed "real" relative or when unlanded game play becomes possible you could choose by event to play as an unlanded child of your prior ruler or landed relative somewhere.

This would fit well with the kind of "spirit of the dynasty" approach, as a spirit would know(upon inheritance) while everyone else doesn´t, albeit while invading a character the spirit would be constrained to the senses and technology of that character. You know the spirit tries to enter, but can´t cause its not really a character of your line(Incompatible).

Maybe its a bit weird idea, but it would be nice to have the option. Though might be bit too supernatural for some, and therefore should be disabled by default.

 

[Hanako Seishin]

While I tend to be more of a mid-way concerning adultery, if I catch them I kill them but not going out of my way otherwise.

But why you kill them? The way I see it, the game doesn't really incentivize that, you only do that for roleplay reason because that's what your character would have done. With kids you accept as yours counting for practically all purposes as yours, it's just a choice of having more kids or not, and having more kids is almost always better.
Though I guess it can just work with the stress mechanic too, giving you stress unless you go all the way on "doubt besets me" and disown the child. But in a game with a focus on dynasty, family, blood connections, it just feels wrong when the actual blood connections don't really matter.

 

[Arona]

In my opinion Lords could establish spynetworks where more rational charcter could avoid commiting adultery, but it woulnt quarantee nothing. Also people could try to investigate childs legimacy, not only they self but also others, also this would not be quaranteed if there is not enough evidents.

Also there could be "semi magical" test for kids like injeting faters blood and see how they organism react to it, if there is no impact child is theirs if child will become ill or dies then child is not theirs. Couse most cases childs inherit parents bloodtype, yeah there is change you kill of by randomness your legal child.

To addion to this there can be impleated realy harsh laws against adultery against royals or dilluting royal blood, so it will decrease change to try to cuckhold, only outside of realm characters might try to seduce you wife and if she is stupid or dearing enought she can allow it.

Impleating harsh laws could give longterm opinion penalty what will go away with few generation.

 

[fr-rein]

My ideas:

• Allow females to have secret children. Sometimes you don't want to disclose fact of having a bastard child. It could also add intrigue with orphans into game.
• Make fathers unknown more commonly.
• If your child is from other Dynasty/House, they be persuaded to abandon it (for example, by promising them extra inheritance or if they hate their parents). Seduction should have high-end rewards.
• Ability to get claims of your biological child or press them if you want.
• Make repercussions for being found out harsher.
• Having a bastard will give other siblings a better CB to claim throne, destabilizing realm in future.