For the record, I agree completely with Johan on the proposed nerf. There's no consensus here.
[Suggestion] Nerf westernized Steppe Hordes
- Thread starter HansBaer
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For the record, I agree completely with Johan on the proposed nerf. There's no consensus here.
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If Russia could westernize, the hordes could have westernized aswell. Not all hordes were primitive. Timurids shouldn't even be a horde at this point anyway. And Khazan evolved aswell.
- Dec 14, 1999
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I couldn't have said it better. This is getting really annoying, that the game is getting changed less fun in every patch. For God's sake, countries are not equal even at the game start, so why westernized Horde would be end of the world?
Guess what happened to real hordes. At some point nomadic and semi-nomadic hordes just couldn't compete with more organised military might with gunpowder weapons. By the end of EUIV's time period nomads were only a minor annoyance and both Russia and China could easily defeat them. And Crimea survived as long as it did, because it was under Ottoman protection.
That sounds logical.
Which means that westernizing as a horde costs...uh...3650 AMPs more than with anything else. That's really bad.
- translation of what Novacat meant - evil Pdox stole my exploits wuaah wuaaah.
PS: and yep, you are completely right non western powers should not have ability to modernize their society because you know - they are filthy barbarians who cant rule by themself.
- 1. you know, if you did not have any idea or knowledge about other country history its better not talk about it. "Westernization" (note the quotation marks) was started in Russia long before Peter even born. 2. westernization is ingame decision and everyone can enact it. 3. so if "strong khan decides to westernize" he can do it. And his decision will transform his nomadic realm in modern western monarchy.
- pretending that NOMADIC government can be modern is BULL. Nomads can modernize their society and end end up with good old proper despotic monarchy where modern thinking khan is a good old proper King.
- im sorry but your examples are shitty as hell and have nothing to do with "westernized nomads".
- so steppes inhabited by ghosts and goblins and not actual people, cool story. Apparently you dont understand what ingame westernization represents.
- 1. nope, i just expressing my opinion on longtime needed fix which will happen in 1.3 and vocalize my support of this Pdox decision presented to us by Johan himself. 2. their NI are fine with or without nomadic government, game has far worse examples of NI's but no one defending them i wonder why... 3. bla bla bla every country can defeat Russia (and BTW Russia can be fomed not only by Moskovy) and why you even comparing Moskovys NI to nomads NI? Compare them to Polish/Lithuanian, Sweden, Prussia and Ottos.
I think that can be said with any non-European/Western Country.
PDS should let their "nerf-bat" at home and bring the "buff-bat" into play to buff areas of the game that are weak.
From what I remember, hordes got no problem with gunpowder cavalry. All those cossacs etc. Even north american nations got gunpowder cavalry. So why it is so problem to got those in game?
Lol, buying a few guns from europeans consider them "westernised". Or do you mean that they should get gunpowder horsemen as they progress in tech? Maybe from a trade with european event or something
IA with the nerf, right now it's along the same lines as the Ming keeping the Mandate of Heaven (faction system/tech reduction thing what ever it was) but i do think they should get some NI buffs to compensate.
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I am trying for the last week to westernize a Shiite converted Timuride horde then culture switch it to France because, Shiite Horde BBB ! It is not that easy... and with each new patch it becomes harder and less interesting to do that kind of crazy stuff
So hordes are no threat without this boni? What kind of threat are we talking about, border raids and skirmishers or a return to ye olde Tatar yoke? Was there no change in this percieved threat from the 1400's to the 1600's?
As I understood the original argument, there was a desire for hordes to be able to stand toe-to-toe with Russia strictly from a gameplay point-of-view, and not because Russia is Russia but because Russia, Brassia (Brandenburg/Prussia), and Sweden top the league of boni-infused military strength, and apparently it is a goal in itself for some to expand that trio.
Why aren't you arguing for Austria, Georgia or Majapahit to be able to compete with Europe's finest militaries?
Why this focus on NI's? Surely gameplay circumstances (land, overall strength, alliances, times of weakness, etc.) are more decisive to the outcome of a game than a handful of boni here and there?
I told you how. Have more centralization, massive prestige in being a soldier (maybe having them as the higher social class) and institutions being built around war. "Aristocracy" is actually a class made of soldiers, and getting to the higher ranks is a matter of being a good fighter, soldier and commander, not money. Here, you have a reformed horde government still pretty recognizable as a former all-sacking horde.
Please expound on your idea of 'unique gameplay', 'fun', and 'unconventional way'.
Which is perfectly fine, but then the NIs of the Horde countries will need to be overhauled. As it is, one thing thats common across the Horde countries is that their NIs are pretty terrible if left to stand on their own. This is not a problem when they have the Horde government bonuses propping them up, but this is a very serious issue if any attempt at modernization/westernization (which is absolutely mandatory for Steppe Hordes because they get no infantry/cavalry upgrades) results in them losing those bonuses. Thus the NIs for Steppe Hordes really should be looked at and redone.
Again, I know what happened in real life, but EU IV is not supposed to be a perfect choreograph of real life. EU IV is deliberately designed to not be so deterministic that no matter how hard a player tries he cannot change the fate of a country.
You live up to your name very well. Considering that your argument has more or less boiled down to strawmen and ad hominem, you are very obviously a troll, and thus, should be ignored.
Hordes have an even harder time westernizing because they not only have to deal with all the normal problems of westernization, but they also have to deal with the "Khan is Weak" pretender revolts for being at peace too long, unless your crazy enough to launch a war in the middle of westernization.
There is a desire for hordes to be able to, should the cards be played right, stand toe to toe with Russia. As said, nothing is more fustrating than doing everything right, conquering huge amounts of territory, westernizing successfully, and yet despite all that your armies are still vastly inferior to the Russians.
Because not every country is focused around military. Austria has a diplomacy focus, their military is lousy but their far superior diplomacy makes up for it, this is fine. Georgia and Majapahjit both use generic NIs, and considering that the forums universally agree that generic NIs are shit and Paradox is taking moves to rectify this problem I do not see why I have to beat that dead horse.
Westernized Steppe Hordes, despite all the bitching, were hardly unstoppable juggernauts. While everyone is focused on the upsides of the Steppe Hordes, there were also downsides. The constant pretender revolts, the Succession Crisises, the fact that Dynasties rarely persisted because all it took was a little bit of bad luck to completely wipe out a dynasty. Even the bonuses of a Steppe Horde were not all that amazing. +50% Manpower, +50% Landforce Limit, and +25% Power in owned Plains/Desert gives the Steppe Hordes a very unique defensive gameplay in wars, in that they could only match Russia (whom can get +125% Manpower, +10% Discipline (from Absolute Monarchy), and +50% Land Force Limit) when fighting defensively on the Steppes. This also limited expansion as, once you got out of Plains/Desert terrain, even defensively the Hordes could not fight well.
Infact, im not even sure why people are bitching about 'exploits' and 'its overpowered' when the Russians surpass them in bonuses, without the disadvantages of pretender revolts and succession crisises. Sure the Russians dont get horde CBs but I never use horde CBs after I westernize anyway, the Expansion CB is far superior anyhow considering that it gets 50% peace costs.
This is also why, even if the Horde NIs get buffed, im still going to be somewhat upset over this, because even if you can still match Russia on the battlefield, the unique restrictions that guided your playstyle will be gone and your more or less functioning like any other ordinary country.
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The point was that you can't expect that steppe horde can survive against the more advanced nations in the long run, it just isn't realistic. In order to survive and win the day they have to evolve into more organised states. Historically Russian and Persian khanates were already becoming more settled and had permanent administrative and trade cities around the time when the game starts. I find reforms in government as reasonable requirement for westernization, although I think that it would be nice to have some sort of settled horde government type instead of regular monarchy.
You take a decision to restructure your society to be more like an "ordinary" western European country, and then you want to keep functioning nothing like the countries that your restructuring was modeled on? O-kay. I'll be over here instituting a tribal democracy in France because why the eff not? Makes as much sense.
And really, from all this yacking about matching Russia, Russia this, Russia that, the real problem is probably that Russia is OP and needs a nerf. And +125% manpower? Isn't that maybe, just a bit excessive? Oh, and with a real government, don't forget that you can then beat them at discipline, at least as the Timurids.
The problem is that even if you advance a Steppe Horde, if they lose the Government bonus, they become inferior to 'advanced' countries even if they managed to match and surpass them in tech level. Russia is the big example of this, as they get the Landforce limit bonus and an even bigger manpower bonus just in their NIs alone.
Its a good argument to make, but the Russians are pretty well balanced vis-a-vis Sweden, Brandenburg and Prussia, considering that, its absolutly insane to nerf them as then you would have those nerfs later on cascade to Sweden/Brandenburg, and who wants that?
Besides, even if the Russian NIs were nerfed, that doesnt account for the fact Steppe Horde NIs are terrible.
What is insane about this pathetic episode is that everyone agrees that the Steppe Hordes are balanced now, but a few people are arguing for changes anyway because the concept of a westernized steppe hordes offends their 'realism' sensibilities.
By 5%. Woop-de-fucking-do. Infact, losing the steppe horde bonus means that Hordes will have less quality, too, as they will lose the 25% power bonus in owned plains/desert. As I said, this is a -huge- nerf for westernized hordes, to the point where playing a Westernized horde would not even be worth it anymore. Which I imagine is fine if Paradox's purpose is to turn hordes into the same thing as the Africans and Native Americans: Cardboard cutouts whose sole purpose is to provide a convinient target for expansionist Europeans.
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