[Suggestion] Nerf westernized Steppe Hordes

[WeissRaben]

While the Horde government is REALLY strong, having westernized hordes automatically revert to monarchies makes little sense. If they abandoned their lifestyle and became settled, more structured nations, it's because they passed the decision to reform the government. Moreover, reforming the government becomes REALLY bad - you lose somewhere around 850 AMPs, not counting the whole Administrative idea branch needed, to get something you are going to get anyway westernizing. I'm all for giving them a Westernized Horde government, maybe with reduced boni (25%?), but removing it altogether is just going to be bad.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

While the Horde government is REALLY strong, having westernized hordes automatically revert to monarchies makes little sense. If they abandoned their lifestyle and became settled, more structured nations, it's because they passed the decision to reform the government. Moreover, reforming the government becomes REALLY bad - you lose somewhere around 850 AMPs, not counting the whole Administrative idea branch needed, to get something you are going to get anyway westernizing. I'm all for giving them a Westernized Horde government, maybe with reduced boni (25%?), but removing it altogether is just going to be bad.

I think that reforming the government either should be prerequisite for westernization (or westernization should be prerequisite for reforming the government). Like you said it doesn't make sense to reform the government if you get the benefits automatically when you westernize.

 

[Rabid]

I think that reforming the government either should be prerequisite for westernization (or westernization should be prerequisite for reforming the government). Like you said it doesn't make sense to reform the government if you get the benefits automatically when you westernize.

The real issue is that the 'benefit' of reforming the government is actually a huge nerf. Some of the tech penalty from the Nomad group should get split off and rolled into the government bonuses, IMO.

 

[Novacat]

in 1.3, hordes becomes monarchies when westernising.

I agree with DDRJake on this.

This is a really, really bad idea. Steppe Horde government is the only thing that lets the steppe hordes compete, their NIs are, by themselves, terrible compared to Russia/Brandenburg/Sweden, and I always loved EU IV as being one of those few games where a properly played non-European country, given lots of luck and skill, could actually compete with the top European countries. I dont really want the game to go in a direction where the non-Europeans will always and forever be third-rate backwaters, I already experianced enough of that with CK2 and HOI3.

I mean, considering the martial focused attitudes of the Steppe Hordes, if one does manage to westernize should it not be a military juggernaut? Should Sweden, Brandenburg, and Russia forever and always be the undisputed kings of land warfare?

 

[WeissRaben]

I think that reforming the government either should be prerequisite for westernization (or westernization should be prerequisite for reforming the government). Like you said it doesn't make sense to reform the government if you get the benefits automatically when you westernize.

It's backwards, really - losing the boni is obviously a nerf, one that you have to shoulder if you want your nation to be more stable. If you don't care, you can march on and westernize without reforming. Any other solution is either a huge nerf on Reform the Government (min 7-800 AMPs to get the same "benefits" as westernization) or on the hordes (having their westernization cost 7-800 AMPs more and requiring a full idea set the other nations don't need). Should be avoided.

 

[durvas]

There's still HRE abuse, I guess.

Shhhh....

 

[Olaus Petrus]

It's backwards, really - losing the boni is obviously a nerf, one that you have to shoulder if you want your nation to be more stable. If you don't care, you can march on and westernize without reforming. Any other solution is either a huge nerf on Reform the Government (min 7-800 AMPs to get the same "benefits" as westernization) or on the hordes (having their westernization cost 7-800 AMPs more and requiring a full idea set the other nations don't need). Should be avoided.

I think both should be required to get the full benefits. In a process to become more advanced many steppe nomads adopted more permanent residences for their increased administration and adopted much from the conquered nations. For example while Timur spent his time conquering nations his grandson Ulugh Beg spent most of his time improving sciences in the capital.

 

[Novacat]

The root of the problem is that Steppe Hordes are pitiful without the Horde government bonuses. Even if you get higher tech level, such as Muslim/Chinese (In the case of reform) or Western, it still doesnt discount the fact that Steppe Hordes have terrible land combat NIs and terrible home territory which would seriously hurt them in the event of conflict with a country with real land combat NIs, such as Russia or Sweden/Brandenburg (if their troops do end up in the Steppes for whatever reason)

 

[Mackus]

I guess Paradox just removed "reform government" decision, and everyone who is western techgroup automatically ceases to be tribal by event. Since there are no tribal western nations at game start, this effectively means westernization removes tribal government.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I dont really want the game to go in a direction where the non-Europeans will always and forever be third-rate backwaters, I already experianced enough of that with CK2 and HOI3.

CK2? I would understand if you would complain about non-Europeans in Vicky2, but in CKII you can easily defeat the Europeans if you play as Muslim or Tengri Pagan. Especially Mongols with their huge doomstacks are easy to play.

 

[Novacat]

I'm all for giving them a Westernized Horde government, maybe with reduced boni (25%?), but removing it altogether is just going to be bad.

Having thought on this idea, it wouldnt be a bad idea, although the 50% bonus to Force Limit/Manpower should probably remain as is as, they are not that large. Let me get a nice little chart for you.

Russia - Absolute Monarchy:
+10% Discipline
-1 Revolt Risk
+125% Manpower
+50% Land Force Limit
-50% Infantry Cost
-15% Core Creation
+10% Manpower Recovery
+10% Production Efficiency
+1 Colonists
Auto Explore next to Colonies
+0.5 Army Tradition
-10% Technology Cost

Timurids (These guys have the best of the horde NIs) + Steppe Horde:
+50% Manpower
+50% Land Force Limit
-50% Relations Decay
+25% Unit Power (Infantry/Cavalry/Artillery) in owned Plains and Desert Provinces
Pretender Revolts if at peace too long
Pretender takes over if regency happens
Succession Crisis on weak claimant inheriting throne
-25% Core Creation
+10% Army Morale Recover Speed
-2% Prestige Decay
+50% Religious Unity
+3 Heathen Tolerance
+20% Cavalry Power
-10% War Exhaustion Reduction Cost
-10% Land Attrition
-10% Stability Cost
+1 Monthly Prestige
+5% Discipline

As you can see, Russia can still outproduce Timurids due to +10% Production Efficiency and -50% Infantry Cost. Timurids significantly but not substantially outmatches them in quality, as while the Timurids has less Discipline, they also have a whopping +25% Power bonus, but this only applies on their territory in plains/desert terrain (which means Timurids loses their quality bonus if they launch an attack on Russia). While the Timurids have some nice bonuses, such as +50% Religious Unity, the Prestige bonuses, and Stability cost, it might be a bit difficult to argue that they are better than the -10% Tech cost and +0.5 Army Tradition that the Russians get.

That doesnt even count the hurdles Timurids has to go through in order to westernize. Especially since Westernization is easy for Russia since their St. Petersburg decision gives them a whopping +3 stability.

This is why removing Steppe Horde Government from Western hordes will absolutly kill them. Western tech Hordes will have nothing capable of stopping the Russian zerg as hordes are entirely dependant on their government and generic ideas for military bonuses.

CK2? I would understand if you would complain about non-Europeans in Vicky2, but in CKII you can easily defeat the Europeans if you play as Muslim or Tengri Pagan. Especially Mongols with their huge doomstacks are easy to play.

One word: Norse. Reformed Norse also keep most of the Norse bonuses while losing all of its penalties.

 

[Redron]

The root of the problem is that Steppe Hordes are pitiful without the Horde government bonuses. Even if you get higher tech level, such as Muslim/Chinese (In the case of reform) or Western, it still doesnt discount the fact that Steppe Hordes have terrible land combat NIs and terrible home territory which would seriously hurt them in the event of conflict with a country with real land combat NIs, such as Russia or Sweden/Brandenburg (if their troops do end up in the Steppes for whatever reason)

Why the need for the steppe hordes to equal the two most quality based military European nations?

Edit: St. Petersberg capital move no longer gives stability.

 

[LarryLeica]

That doesnt even count the hurdles Timurids has to go through in order to westernize. Especially since Westernization is easy for Russia since their St. Petersburg decision gives them a whopping +3 stability.

I agree, but the St Petersburg decision does not give +3 stab anymore, just prestige...

 

[Novacat]

Why the need for the steppe hordes to equal the two most quality based military European nations?

I dont believe that the Steppe Hordes should match them in quality, but rather, like Russia, still be able to drown out their quality in quantity, or be somewhere in between Russia and Brandenburg in that they get a lot of high quality troops, but not as many as Russia and not as disciplined as Brandenburg/Sweden, which is currently where Hordes are at (The +5% Discipline bonus and +25% Power bonus in own terrain is what makes up Horde quality bonuses). Note that Steppe Horde NIs have very little manpower bonus, no landforce bonus, and very little discipline (+5% Timurids, +10% Manchu) bonus, so Steppe Hordes are dependant on their government type for the most useful military bonuses they get.

Also, useful military NIs outside of Europe are pretty much nonexistant. Japan/Nepal are the closest, but both have major flaws that prevent them from matching the best european NIs.

Edit: St. Petersberg capital move no longer gives stability.

I stand corrected then, still, Russia starts with a far superior tech group and arent faced with the 'Westernize by 1600 or die' decision that Hordes are faced with.

 

[Redron]

I dont believe that the Steppe Hordes should match them in quality, but rather, like Russia, still be able to drown out their quality in quantity, or be somewhere in between Russia and Brandenburg in that they get a lot of high quality troops, but not as many as Russia and not as disciplined as Brandenburg/Sweden. Note that Steppe Horde NIs have very little manpower bonus, no landforce bonus, and very little discipline (+5% Timurids, +10% Manchu) bonus, so Steppe Hordes are dependant on their government type for the most useful bonuses they get.

Also, useful military NIs outside of Europe are pretty much nonexistant. Japan/Nepal are the closest, but both have major flaws that prevent them from matching the best european NIs.



I stand corrected then, still, Russia starts with a far superior tech group and arent faced with the 'Westernize by 1600 or die' decision that Hordes are faced with.

I think that is fair enough, a 'Reformed Horde' government type does seem like a good solution, with reduced bonuses.

Just fyi, everyone forgets about Dai Viet in terms of military nations in the east.

 

[masteriw]

Will the patches ever boost anything that's seen as underpowered?

 

[alpreb]

Will the patches ever boost anything that's seen as underpowered?

- Rebalanced cavalry & infantry fire/shock values, so cavalry is more useful.

Cavalry got a buff.

- Religious governments no longer get a -1 stability for having their ruler die.

The papal state and other divine nations got a neat one there.

- Orthodox countries now gets +2% missionary strength from full patriarch authority.

It's still ehh to patriacal but hey, BUFF (it needed a buff)

Find more on your own!

 

[Novacat]

I think that is fair enough, a 'Reformed Horde' government type does seem like a good solution, with reduced bonuses.

Reduced bonuses im not so sure about. It would have been fair to ask back when Hordes got +100% Manpower and Land Force, but now I think their bonuses are fine as is unless Steppe Horde NIs get a buff. Although an interesting alternative is that Westernization turns unreformed Hordes into Monarchies, but reformed hordes that westernize keep the reformed horde government. Thus a Horde that goes Reformed and then Western has the perks of both. This would also boost the popularity of the reform decision and make fast-track westernisation as hordes much more difficult.

Just fyi, everyone forgets about Dai Viet in terms of military nations in the east.

Dai Viet is not a military nation, at least, unless the bar is set so low that +10% Morale, +25% Manpower, and +10% Infantry power counts as 'military'.

 

[Meridian235]

Westernized Crimea will never be as good as Muscovy, and significantly more rare. Not sure what the complaining is about.

 

[eugene171]

Everyone seems to be ignoring that Hordes get "-50% Relations Over Time"

This seems minor, but it means that doom coalitions will be sticking with you for a lot longer than usual. It doesn't matter how many dudes you have if ALL OF EUROPE wants to murder you.